Crown Graphic Lens Choices

[Jesse3Names]

I thought I had settled on a Wanderlust Travelwide (had a rather long thread in the 120 RF section), but I recently realized I'm headed to Banff, Alberta for the first time ever. It's too beautiful there not to shoot LF film and the Travelwides won't be ready for a while - I didn't know of it when the pre-orders were available, so I have to wait for the second batch to be ready. Basically, I have come back to a Crown Graphic option. I know that they are capable of handling focal lengths down to 65mm with the bed dropped so it's out of view. However, I am a bit confused:

1. Will the Schneider Super Angulon 65mm f/8 fold up in the Crown Graphic? If not, which 65mm 4x5 lens will?

2. Can someone explain mounts to me, i.e. lens boards? KEH denotes a Schneider SA 65/8 they have available as a "25 MT." I think that means a 25mm hole on the lens board, but does that mean the lens itself is fundamentally different from a "35 MT" lens? Can I just buy an appropriate lens board? What's the correct lens board I need for shooting 4x5 with a 65/8 on a CG body? I found a mint condition 65/8 SA on eBay (unmounted), but I don't know if finding a lens board would be difficult for it.

3. Are there shutter types to avoid for this setup? The eBay lens has a Synchro-Compur lens and the KEH one has a "Prontor-Press, B, T." I also have no clue what that means, besides the "B, T" probably meaning bulb and timer while Prontor-Press is the shutter type with those settings.

I'd love some clarification. LF is still new to me. I have yet to lay my hands on a 4x5 camera.

Cheers,
Jesse

 

[Corran]

I'm not 100% sure as I've not used that lens, but I'll try to help. You might consider also posting to the Graflex forum and/or Large Format Photography Forums.

I bet that small lens will fold up into it, but I'm not sure.

The 25mm hole would correspond to a #00 shutter. You need a board with that size hole. You can buy them from eBay - I believe there's still some folks machining them and will cut whatever hole you need. Obviously the lens won't attach in a 35mm hole!

Be careful, there's a few different Graphics out there, and some of the lens boards are different.

Any #00 shutter is very old, as they stopped making lenses in that size a long time ago. The Compur is a very nice shutter though.

I'm sure others will chime in and correct me if I've misstated anything. A Crown Graphic is a great way to start. Though are you sure you want a 65mm lens? That's about an 18mm on a typical 35mm camera, so really really wide.

If you happen to be interested I have both a 90mm and 210mm lenses I am selling 😉

 

[Jesse3Names]

I'm not 100% sure as I've not used that lens, but I'll try to help. You might consider also posting to the Graflex forum and/or Large Format Photography Forums.

I bet that small lens will fold up into it, but I'm not sure.

The 25mm hole would correspond to a #00 shutter. You need a board with that size hole. You can buy them from eBay - I believe there's still some folks machining them and will cut whatever hole you need. Obviously the lens won't attach in a 35mm hole!

Be careful, there's a few different Graphics out there, and some of the lens boards are different.

Any #00 shutter is very old, as they stopped making lenses in that size a long time ago. The Compur is a very nice shutter though.

I'm sure others will chime in and correct me if I've misstated anything. A Crown Graphic is a great way to start. Though are you sure you want a 65mm lens? That's about an 18mm on a typical 35mm camera, so really really wide.

If you happen to be interested I have both a 90mm and 210mm lenses I am selling 😉

Ah, so diameter corresponds to shutter type. That makes more sense. Did optics companies like Schneider make a lens with multiple different types of shutters at one time, or was it just a matter of whenever it was manufactured, it got the available shutter they were using in production at that time?

Message me what you are asking for the 90mm and which one specifically it is, please. I know that 90mm on 4x5 corresponds roughly to 28mm on 135 film. That's almost too long for my purpose, but not if it comes at a steal. I only plan to shoot landscapes, especially at first, on 4x5, so the 18mm is my sweet spot. I love my Canon 16-35mm f/2.8L II that I typically shoot at 16-18mm and stopped down. But similarly, I'm selling that one now only because I bought a Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 (way better for astro stuff) and plan to get a Rokinon/Samyang 24mm f/1.4 and a CG body/lens combo with the money from that.

 

[Jesse3Names]

Also, I found this video on "modifying" a Speed Graphic. That's about as non-destructive to a camera as you can get but still call it modifying; hence why I used quotation marks. Does this guide apply to the Crown Graphic to achieve forward tilt of the front standard while maintaining the ability to have a hard stop at "0 degrees" and the ability to close the camera body with the lens attached? Forward tilt of the front standard seems super useful in landscapes, but rear tilt... I just can't see the use for my shooting style at the moment.

I do realize that it'd be useless for an "ultra-wide" 65mm lens, because the base would protrude into the field of view not to mention the image circle may not allow for it. But I could see this modification allowing for forward tilt of the front standard to be useful for 90mm or longer lenses that have a narrower field of view and therefore more allowable tilt movements.

 

[Corran]

There's a number of different shutters but the 3 most common you'll find are the # 0, 1, and 3. Various companies made them in these sizes and almost any of the modern lenses available fit in them. The 00 was an older, especially small shutter found especially with some wider and smaller-coverage lenses (2x3).

I've done the modification and it's easy, and can be done on most Graphics except for the very oldest models. It's not terribly useful though unless you are using longer lenses, as you surmise, so I wouldn't bother for now.

My 90mm is a Schneider SA 90mm f/8 and it is complete with a center filter and lensboard for Technika-style cameras so it's neither a steal nor applicable probably for you, so no worries.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Have you used a 4x5 with a 65mm lens yet? Among issues such as the extreme wide angle of view, there is getting an image on the ground glass. Without a good fresnel lens, things will be dark and fall-off will be significant.

Without meaning to be rude, taking a new-to-you camera on a vacation is a recipe for disaster. I would keep it simple. Get a Kodak Ektar 127mm mounted for your camera. It will let you close it up inside. Or a Kodak Wide-Field 100mm.

A listing of lens boards-
http://www.skgrimes.com/products/lens-boards/graphic

Shutter sizes-
http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/to-lensboard

'Press' refers to the shutter having the function of being able to be held open without using T or B. This is for focusing.

 

[Jesse3Names]

Have you used a 4x5 with a 65mm lens yet? Among issues such as the extreme wide angle of view, there is getting an image on the ground glass. Without a good fresnel lens, things will be dark and fall-off will be significant.

Without meaning to be rude, taking a new-to-you camera on a vacation is a recipe for disaster. I would keep it simple. Get a Kodak Ektar 127mm mounted for your camera. It will let you close it up inside. Or a Kodak Wide-Field 100mm.

A listing of lens boards-
http://www.skgrimes.com/products/lens-boards/graphic

Shutter sizes-
http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/to-lensboard

I don't take your comments as rude, don't worry. Sometimes all the Googling won't find you the right information or worse, will find you wrong info... that's all too common. I have not used a 4x5 camera at all before, let along an ultra-wide lens such as the 65mm I'm considering.

I am completely aware of the need for a Fresnel lens while using ultra-wide lenses. With all due respect, most of what I've been reading and who I've spoke with who shoot 4x5 say that focusing and framing in most daylight conditions, even with cloud cover, is not a problem on ground glass only. However, we weren't speaking exclusively about the 65mm lens at that moment, so those phone conversations would be worth revisiting with the respective people. I've learned that certain Crowns came with GG and a Fresnel lens and others only came with GG. I will probably buy my Crown body from KEH and can probably ask one of the people there to check and see if it has one installed from the factory and not added later or non-existent entirely... just to make sure I know what I'm getting or avoid one that doesn't include a factory Fresnel lens with GG if it's really that necessary.

Anyway, the widest I would feel comfortable shooting on 4x5 is 90mm. Any longer and I just don't like how it frames up personally. If I can get a consensus that shooting the Schneider SA 65/8 (granted it allows the body to fold up while in place) is really THAT difficult without a Fresnel lens, then I will go with a 90mm one. Time to make some more phone calls on that topic.

 

[Jesse3Names]

And to that effect, if I plan on never shooting with shorter lenses than 90mm, couldn't I picked up a Super Speed Graphic that allows for greater movements (including +/- 15 deg front tilt, +/- 25 deg swing, L/R 0.5" shift, and 15 deg bed drop) AND a 360 deg rotating Graflok back? Am I missing something here because if I don't intend to shoot 65mm lenses, the SSG seems like a better bang for the buck as a field camera with some movements. The SSG should take between-the-lens shutter lenses such as the 90/6.8 (which folds according to one forum post elsewhere, but not the 90/8 SA)... please correct me if I'm wrong. I REALLY don't want a heavy, bulky focal plane shutter to haul around on the side such as on the Speed Graphic.

 

[Corran]

First of all, you aren't going to get any movements at all with either the 65mm f/8 SA or the 90mm Angulon. There is just not any extra image circle to do that with.

Second, you were talking about the Crown Graphic, not the Speed earlier. Which are you looking for? Do you need a Speed?

Also, what are you shooting? Landscapes? If you want movements you are already kind of barking up the wrong tree. For really wide-angle stuff, a 75mm f/4.5 or 5.6 with a large IC is the way to go for movement ability. Even the 58mm XL I have doesn't really have much movement. A few millimeters. The 65mm f/5.6 SA has a little more wiggle room than the f/8.

 

[Jesse3Names]

First of all, you aren't going to get any movements at all with either the 65mm SA or the 90mm Angulon. There is just not any extra image circle to do that with.

Second, you were talking about the Crown Graphic, not the Speed earlier. Which are you looking for? Do you need a Speed?

Also, what are you shooting? Landscapes? If you want movements you are already kind of barking up the wrong tree. For really wide-angle stuff, a 75mm f/4.5 or 5.6 with a large IC is the way to go for movement ability. Even the 58mm XL I have doesn't really have much movement. A few millimeters.

I thought I was pretty clear with what I was typing, but I'm sorry if my words confused you. I am aware of the small image circle of the 65mm SA, but I thought the 90mm had a little bit more... I guess not from what you've said.

My main thought is still a Crown Graphic. I thought of the Super Speed Graphic with the between-the-lens shutter (not the Speed Graphic with the focal plane shutter, if I have the distinction correct - again, sorry if I'm wrong) would be better because of its more movements. But if I don't have the image circle, it's not worth it. However, if I do get a 75/4.5 or 75/5.6 I may be able to get away with an SSG (again, assuming no focal plane shutter). I do have a question - if I got a Speed Graphic, could I just remove the FPS and shoot with a cable release like I intend to on the Crown Graphic? Or will there be a gaping hole that allows light into the camera if that FPS is gone? That'd be great if the Speed Graphic provides the movements necessary.

And yes, all landscapes with 4x5. Anything else and I resort to my 35mm gear.

 

[Corran]

Sorry if I misunderstood. It is after all 2:30am here 🙂

That said, you've thrown around a lot of different cameras and lenses so far and perhaps we should step back and reassess.

Yes, the Speed Graphic has a FP shutter. No, you shouldn't rip it out. It won't help much, you'll destroy the value of the camera, and besides, Speeds sell for more than Crowns anyway. The extra movements afforded by the Super Speed is great, if you can utilize them, so perhaps if you can find one at a good price you should go that route, and get an appropriate 75mm lens. I think that's a good middle-ground lens anyway between 65 and 90. Alternatively, stopping down a 65mm for DOF concerns isn't a terrible thing so a cheaper option would be the Crown and a 65SA and movements be damned.

I'm not sure why you are harping on folding up the camera w/ lens. If that's super important to you, fine, but personally I don't find that relevant at all. I carry my camera (Chamonix or Linhof) around on the tripod with the lens on it and not folded or anything all the time, for miles, but you might have other plans.

What I did when I first started 4x5 was buy a Toyo monorail that was 20lbs and a couple of lenses, and hauled that around for about 6 months. Good thing I was a bit younger. Anyway, any Crown or Super Graphic will work out great for you, with any lens you can find in a working shutter to your liking, and then once you use it for a while you'll probably hone in on what you want or need for your purposes.

Goodnight...

 

[Jesse3Names]

Sorry if I misunderstood. It is after all 2:30am here 🙂

That said, you've thrown around a lot of different cameras and lenses so far and perhaps we should step back and reassess.

Yes, the Speed Graphic has a FP shutter. No, you shouldn't rip it out. It won't help much, you'll destroy the value of the camera, and besides, Speeds sell for more than Crowns anyway. The extra movements afforded by the Super Speed is great, if you can utilize them, so perhaps if you can find one at a good price you should go that route, and get an appropriate 75mm lens. I think that's a good middle-ground lens anyway between 65 and 90. Alternatively, stopping down a 65mm for DOF concerns isn't a terrible thing so a cheaper option would be the Crown and a 65SA and movements be damned.

I'm not sure why you are harping on folding up the camera w/ lens. If that's super important to you, fine, but personally I don't find that relevant at all. I carry my camera (Chamonix or Linhof) around on the tripod with the lens on it and not folded or anything all the time, for miles, but you might have other plans.

What I did when I first started 4x5 was buy a Toyo monorail that was 20lbs and a couple of lenses, and hauled that around for about 6 months. Good thing I was a bit younger. Anyway, any Crown or Super Graphic will work out great for you, with any lens you can find in a working shutter to your liking, and then once you use it for a while you'll probably hone in on what you want or need for your purposes.

Goodnight...

Of course that's always the case. Late night forum posts... It's 2 hours earlier where I am, fortunately. I can't find an SSG but the only Speed I can find is $500 on KEH. Those 75mm f/6.8 lenses run for $450-500... a little steep. I agree with stepping back though... my original plan was a Crown with a foldable 65mm or 90mm lens. The folding IS important to me - I am big on things fitting in my pack AND being protected. Plus when I go to Banff in October I'll have my mountain bike and I can't carry a tripod/camera with one hand and ride/shift/brake with the other. Well, I could, but I would probably wreck all of my gear and myself in the process. Admittedly, I'd cry more over my mountain bike being destroyed, but that's besides the point.

I'll make some more calls to my favorite photo shops and ask about using GG only - no Fresnel - with a 65mm lens as well as finding a deal on a 75mm lens. I'd love to go 75mm, it's a happy medium + a big image circle, but we shall just see. Thanks for chatting late night!

 

[Corran]

Tripod-less 4x5 can be great fun despite being a challenge. I've done a lot myself.

A thought - you might look for a 65mm f/4 Nikkor. They will be a bit brighter and just cover 4x5. Also, how about getting the 65mm focused at hyperfocal at, say, f/16, and putting infinity stops there? Then just forget about focusing at all. I do that a lot with my 58mmXL and wider lenses.

 

[Nokton48]

As I recall a 65mm will not work on a Graphic. The bellows cannot be compressed enough. But perhaps there is a way??

 

[Corran]

I've definitely had my 58mm XL on a Crown Graphic before so I'm pretty sure a 65mm would work, even though the 58mm XL technically has a slightly longer FFD than 58mm.

 

[leighmarrin]

Jesse, if you've had no large format experience, I really believe you should do some practicing before your vacation. I've been a on-and-off LF amateur for most of my adult life, and when I start doing LF after a long absence, I usually screw up at least a few sheets. Double-exposures... no exposures... a wiped-out sheet from a light leak because I pulled the wrong dark slide or jiggled the spring back with the dark slide pulled.... dust in the film holders... scratched film from mishandling during development or loading/unholding holders, etc.

Your DSLR and 35mm SLR will probably seem idiot-proof, after experiencing the major fumbles most of us encounter when first learning LF photography.

I'd suggest before your vacation you practice with cheap Foma/Arista film from Freestyle, and get used to loading and unloading film holders, then develop one or two sheets at a time in 5x7 or larger trays. (Or more sheets in a dip-and-dunk tank.)

Your 4x5 Crown Graphic is a good choice. The earliest models will have a spring back, so try to find one with a Graflok back, which will accept more accesories. (Most have Graflok backs.) They are often found with a semi-wide 127mm Ektar or 135mm Optar or Xenar lens, which are usually decently sharp at f16 on a tripod. Finding one with a working rangefinder will give you the option of easier use when handheld. I've never used a wide angle lens on a press camera, so no advice there, but once you decide, there is an eBay seller named Heavystar who sells new 4x5 Crown lensboards for about $16.00.

If buying a Crown from eBay, be aware that there are Crown Graphics in the obsolete 3x4 format, and a few sellers may list them in error as being 4x5. Also, avoid the B&J 4x5 press camera--while it has more movements than the Crown and a revolving back, they don't hold up well--I've had two... the back develops light leaks, and the front standard loosens up.

As mentioned earlier, check out www.graflex.org. There are a confusing number of Speed Graphic/Graflex/Graftar/Graflok trade names in use for Graflex products, and sellers often mis-identify their items. (The Super Graphic and the Super Speed Graphic are virtually identical cameras, EXCEPT the SSG was sold with a shutter that had a leaf shutter with a rarely-working 1/1000th speed.)

Anyhow... just some well-intentioned advice from a long-time LF fumbler...

--Leigh M. in Santa Barbara.

 

[Jesse3Names]

Jesse, if you've had no large format experience, I really believe you should do some practicing before your vacation.

That's actually a very good suggestion. I will buy some Arista EDU ISO 100 sheet film. I can get 25 sheets for $19 + shipping - for working out the kinks in my undeveloped LF practices, that's worth it. Seeing how I want to shoot T-MAX 100 that is $83 for 50 sheets, I'm happy to pay $25-ish for practice to not ruin the nice film. Since I don't have access to a dark/dark-capable room (my apartment bathroom has a window) I need to find a good daylight development tank that I shall load inside my changing bag. It works well for 35mm film (I got the giant Adorama bag), but I've never handled larger film like 4x5, of course.

Your 4x5 Crown Graphic is a good choice. The earliest models will have a spring back, so try to find one with a Graflok back, which will accept more accessories... Finding one with a working rangefinder will give you the option of easier use when handheld... but once you decide, there is an eBay seller named Heavystar who sells new 4x5 Crown lensboards for about $16.00.

The body I'm going to buy from KEH.com is a bargain condition Crown Graphic with a top viewfinder, inoperative side rangefinder, and Graflok back. I plan to remove the VF and inoperative RF to make it more compact for field use and packing away in my backpack - I plan to use the ground glass with a loupe anyway. I believe that normal "spring back" loading film holders should fit under the ground glass in the Graflok back, right?

What lens board do I need for a Linhof Synchro-Compur shutter? I just "best offered" a G. [Georg] Leitmeyr Munchen Weitwinkel Anastigmat 90mm f/6.8 (super old, definitely uncoated) lens with a Linhof Synchro-Compur shutter on eBay and got the lens for $61.25 after shipping! A few small marks on the glass, but I'm taking a risk. I do need to buy a lens board for this one though... that's why I'm curious. I found your recommended seller on eBay, but he has Copal #1, Copal #0, and undrilled 4x5 lens boards for the Crown Graphic. I have no clue what I need.

 

[leighmarrin]

Jesse, if your bathroom only has one window, you probably can block it out for night-time use. But if you want to use a daylight tank for 4x5, I'd suggest the Jobo 2521, with a 2509 reel, which holds six sheets. A Jobo film-loading base makes loading much easier. Jobo claims the 2521 tank is only intended for rotary use, but myself and others have used it with good results with inversion. (I invert once every minute and use development times longer than ten minutes.)

Yes, normal film holders will fit a Graflok back.

I know nothing about your eBay Leitmeyr lens. Google suggests it may be very similar to the Schneider Angulon 90mm f6.8. (Not the SUPER-Angulon.) If so, it will not have much movement on 4x5. The Angulon is evidently found with both #00 and #0 Synchro-Compur shutters, so I've no clue which one is yours. If you or a friend can measure the shutter with calipers, and can accurately cut a centered 25mm or larger hole in soft, thin aluminum, you could go ahead and order the BLANK lensboard.

Well, I hope the lens and its shutter are in working order--from what I've read, parts are no longer available for #00 Synchro-Compur shutters. I think you'll be happy with the Crown Graphic--they hold up well. Just remember to drop the bed when using a wide-angle lens.

 

[Roger Hicks]

On shutter sizes/availability:

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps how re-shutter.html

Cheers,

R.

 

[Jesse3Names]

Jesse, if your bathroom only has one window, you probably can block it out for night-time use. But if you want to use a daylight tank for 4x5, I'd suggest the Jobo 2521, with a 2509 reel, which holds six sheets. A Jobo film-loading base makes loading much easier. Jobo claims the 2521 tank is only intended for rotary use, but myself and others have used it with good results with inversion. (I invert once every minute and use development times longer than ten minutes.)

The Paterson 3-reel tank with MOD54 insert (here) processes 6 sheets of 4x5 like the Jobo 2521 w/ 2509 reel, but at a lower cost. How do you think loading either would compare in a loose changing bag? I don't have a changing tent and plan to wait as long as necessary before buying one - they're rather expensive. A video on the MOD54 website says gentle inversion (more of a slow, rotating roll of the tank) works well with that tank. I'd prefer not to use trays, as I can't guarantee that with my current income level I'll be able to afford an apartment with a windowless bathroom (thinking of moving to Seattle next year). I'm a fan of daylight development tanks with 35mm film, so I figure that as long as I can load the 4x5 film properly (with patience, dummy film, and much practice), it should work well.

Kodak recommends developing T-MAX 100 sheet film in rotary tanks with XTOL at 1:1 dilution for 9 3/4 min. Do you think that's long enough to use with a sheet film rotary tank with inversion? There's no time that Kodak themselves recommend that is >10 min, of course they don't recommend a dilution weaker than 1:1 for XTOL.