Jamie123
Veteran
In a recent thread in this forum section a member mentioned that he had handled a certain camera at at a couple of stores and then went on to order from an online store as the other shops didn't have sealed boxes.
What followed was a few people accusing him of wasting the shopkeepers time and putting him out of business.
I have seen this issue come up and while I get the point to certain degree I still think it is founded in a somewhat skewed notion of how commerce works. It assumes that the customer is morally obligated to give a seller his money if said seller has given the customer his time.
Now call me old fashioned but I was always under the impression that when I go into a store it is the sellers job to convince me to spend my money and if I don't it's ultimately his failure and not my lack of loyalty. Afterall loyalty has to be earned, an cannot be demanded.
Now, of course, no small shop owner can compete with the low prices of some of the online stores. He has to charge a premium but the question is how much this is and what additional value he can bring to the table that the online store cannot. Sometimes it's expertise, sometimes it's a better warranty and sometimes it's just being treated exceptionally well.
In any case, if you leave a store and still think "I'm going to order this from B&H" then the clerk has missed an opportunity. Even if you were set on buying online from the beginning he still had the chance to change your mind.
Also, I think it's perfectly acceptable to handle a display item even if you don't buy it. That's why it's called a display item.
Obviously, there is also the point of common courtesy. I don't think it's right to intentionally lead a seller on and make him go out on a limb if you're not at least considering making a purchase. Also, if you're just in a store to play around with displayed gear (which is ok, IMO) it's polite not to keep the clerk from attending to other customers. Basically, I don't think one should push the good will and professionalism of a store clerk up to a point where it really exceeds the treatment a regular customer could expect.
What followed was a few people accusing him of wasting the shopkeepers time and putting him out of business.
I have seen this issue come up and while I get the point to certain degree I still think it is founded in a somewhat skewed notion of how commerce works. It assumes that the customer is morally obligated to give a seller his money if said seller has given the customer his time.
Now call me old fashioned but I was always under the impression that when I go into a store it is the sellers job to convince me to spend my money and if I don't it's ultimately his failure and not my lack of loyalty. Afterall loyalty has to be earned, an cannot be demanded.
Now, of course, no small shop owner can compete with the low prices of some of the online stores. He has to charge a premium but the question is how much this is and what additional value he can bring to the table that the online store cannot. Sometimes it's expertise, sometimes it's a better warranty and sometimes it's just being treated exceptionally well.
In any case, if you leave a store and still think "I'm going to order this from B&H" then the clerk has missed an opportunity. Even if you were set on buying online from the beginning he still had the chance to change your mind.
Also, I think it's perfectly acceptable to handle a display item even if you don't buy it. That's why it's called a display item.
Obviously, there is also the point of common courtesy. I don't think it's right to intentionally lead a seller on and make him go out on a limb if you're not at least considering making a purchase. Also, if you're just in a store to play around with displayed gear (which is ok, IMO) it's polite not to keep the clerk from attending to other customers. Basically, I don't think one should push the good will and professionalism of a store clerk up to a point where it really exceeds the treatment a regular customer could expect.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
I am just as loyal to stores as they are to me...
Al Kaplan
Veteran
I'd just as soon give my money to a local shop, even if it cost me a bit more money.
Ronald M
Veteran
This arguement has been going on for 50 years that I know of.
Nothing has changed and my take is
The local store allows you to feel and look through the camera and give you the opportunity to see if you like or dislike it for reasons you can not read about. Such as does it fit your hand. Can you see thru it and compare it to other viewfinders.
If there is a problem on how to operate it, the local guy can help you assuming it is not a big box discount store. If there is a warrantee issue or question he can help. My local people will send the camera in at their expense and there is a place to retrieve it other than your front porch when you return from work.
When you want a filter or lens shade, they have it.
as good a B&H is, you can not get this over the phone.
My local guy knows me and bends over backwards to cut me the best deal. He comes close to New York, but there is still a premium. I pay the premium because the unspoken services are there for me.
When he shows you a camera, do you really expect him to explain all this to each and every customer? If you don`t value this, then call New York and order by phone.
Nothing has changed and my take is
The local store allows you to feel and look through the camera and give you the opportunity to see if you like or dislike it for reasons you can not read about. Such as does it fit your hand. Can you see thru it and compare it to other viewfinders.
If there is a problem on how to operate it, the local guy can help you assuming it is not a big box discount store. If there is a warrantee issue or question he can help. My local people will send the camera in at their expense and there is a place to retrieve it other than your front porch when you return from work.
When you want a filter or lens shade, they have it.
as good a B&H is, you can not get this over the phone.
My local guy knows me and bends over backwards to cut me the best deal. He comes close to New York, but there is still a premium. I pay the premium because the unspoken services are there for me.
When he shows you a camera, do you really expect him to explain all this to each and every customer? If you don`t value this, then call New York and order by phone.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Same here. But maybe the compromise is that I use the local store for my developing and film purchases, and online (like RFF) for equipment. The store I have in mind is great to deal with but their used equipment is just not realistically priced.
kshapero
South Florida Man
I look at three categories:
1. Local shop
2. Best Buy, etc.
3. Online
I will always try to give business to the local shop and if they earn my business then I don't mind paying a little extra, but not freaky extra.
1. Local shop
2. Best Buy, etc.
3. Online
I will always try to give business to the local shop and if they earn my business then I don't mind paying a little extra, but not freaky extra.
KenR
Well-known
Local no more
Local no more
My 2 local camera stores have gone out of business in the last few years as digital took hold. One told me that he had processed 40-50 rolls per day from realtors, before digital, and that it didn't pay to open the door any longer (he gave me an old beat up 5x7 Kodak 2D that he had in the window, which I restored). So I try to go to the not so local camera store to buy film, chemicals, and some equipment - although his prices are higher than the big guys on line or even farther down the road, which I reserve for major purchases.
Local no more
My 2 local camera stores have gone out of business in the last few years as digital took hold. One told me that he had processed 40-50 rolls per day from realtors, before digital, and that it didn't pay to open the door any longer (he gave me an old beat up 5x7 Kodak 2D that he had in the window, which I restored). So I try to go to the not so local camera store to buy film, chemicals, and some equipment - although his prices are higher than the big guys on line or even farther down the road, which I reserve for major purchases.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
My local camera store charges bizzare freaky prices to the point where I can provide little business. Remember the $10 sponge because it was labelled photography equipment? Welcome aboard internet and the flattening of prices.
Graham Line
Well-known
My local shop is big enough (or something) to pretty much match the price of the legit mail order houses + shipping.
To expect to handle the product locally and then whine they don't have a sealed box to sell you sounds a little bit self-centered or something.
Inphenity
Member
Here in Columbia SC there used to only be one shop that actually dealt in film, the rest were Ritz Camera type places. The staff at this particular shop came across as really elitist, but they processed black and white film in house and had a good selection of darkroom supplies, lighting equipment, used and new gear ect. ect.. I guess it was the local "Pro shop". They eventually closed down (owner retired) and even though the prices were insane I missed having a local place that I could pick up a few rolls of oddball film.
Fast forward a few years and now we have a new shop that deals mainly in film. It's run by a couple of hobbyist photographers that saw the need for a decent shop in town. I first went in to rent some darkroom time (having learned to process my own b+w). I was greeted at the door with a free cup of coffee from one of the new owners, and proceded to marvel at the range of old film gear for sale in the store. 4x5 view cameras, old speed/crown graphics, medium format kits, and a plethora of 35mm slr's and rangefinders. It was my little slice of heaven. I bought some paper and made a few prints and snagged a beer around the corner while they dried. Then I went back in to get my prints and pay for everything and got a 15% student discount even after I told him I was not a student. Aside from things they don't stock I always go to them even if a pack of paper cost me a few dollars more.
I now have my own darkroom here at home so I no longer need to rent theirs but I still get a freebie nearly every time I go in. Last time it was a few free rolls of kodachrome, the time before a 35mm mixing chamber for my dichro 67(from a junk enlarger). I am really loyal to my local shop because the staff gets excited to see someone else with the same love for film, and they don't mind if I go in, pick up 1 roll of the cheap film, and just hang out talking photography for a few hours. God bless small niche shops.
Fast forward a few years and now we have a new shop that deals mainly in film. It's run by a couple of hobbyist photographers that saw the need for a decent shop in town. I first went in to rent some darkroom time (having learned to process my own b+w). I was greeted at the door with a free cup of coffee from one of the new owners, and proceded to marvel at the range of old film gear for sale in the store. 4x5 view cameras, old speed/crown graphics, medium format kits, and a plethora of 35mm slr's and rangefinders. It was my little slice of heaven. I bought some paper and made a few prints and snagged a beer around the corner while they dried. Then I went back in to get my prints and pay for everything and got a 15% student discount even after I told him I was not a student. Aside from things they don't stock I always go to them even if a pack of paper cost me a few dollars more.
I now have my own darkroom here at home so I no longer need to rent theirs but I still get a freebie nearly every time I go in. Last time it was a few free rolls of kodachrome, the time before a 35mm mixing chamber for my dichro 67(from a junk enlarger). I am really loyal to my local shop because the staff gets excited to see someone else with the same love for film, and they don't mind if I go in, pick up 1 roll of the cheap film, and just hang out talking photography for a few hours. God bless small niche shops.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Your description makes me want to move to Columbia, SC. We used to have shops like that in Miami. No more. Not in years.
wgerrard
Veteran
There's a feeling in certain circles that customers ought to "support" local retailers, especially if they sell something that most people do not buy. For example, bookstores, who are in a situation comparable to local photo stores in that they usually cannot compete on price with big online sellers.
I certainly don't feel a need to support any merchant. The word "support" implies an ethical imperative I do not think exists. My local shops are worth the extra money only if they provide something big online sellers don't.
There's one real photo shop in my area. I buy small items there: a strap for a bag or a camera, a couple rolls or film, an aging bottle of Rodinal. I don't buy big ticket items there. I hope they stay in business. But, if they don't, it will have no bearing on my access to the products I want to buy.
I certainly don't feel a need to support any merchant. The word "support" implies an ethical imperative I do not think exists. My local shops are worth the extra money only if they provide something big online sellers don't.
There's one real photo shop in my area. I buy small items there: a strap for a bag or a camera, a couple rolls or film, an aging bottle of Rodinal. I don't buy big ticket items there. I hope they stay in business. But, if they don't, it will have no bearing on my access to the products I want to buy.
Henryah
Member
Customer loyalty and the local shop.
As Ronald M already has pointed out: This debate has been going on for at least fifty years or so. A friend running a camera store in NY told me that he had an answer to customers who wanted him to meet the prices of the box pushers in Manhattan.I can do that he said, if you just leaves the money, grab the box, and be out of here within a minute. And dont expect me to stand heere for an hour telling you how to use the thing. That was around fifty years ago.
As Ronald M already has pointed out: This debate has been going on for at least fifty years or so. A friend running a camera store in NY told me that he had an answer to customers who wanted him to meet the prices of the box pushers in Manhattan.I can do that he said, if you just leaves the money, grab the box, and be out of here within a minute. And dont expect me to stand heere for an hour telling you how to use the thing. That was around fifty years ago.
capitalK
Warrior Poet :P
For the last year, up until last week, I had been working part-time at the local mom and pop.
I could write a book.
And it goes both ways. The way the customers treat the store and the way the store hasn't kept up with what customers want.
I could write a book.
And it goes both ways. The way the customers treat the store and the way the store hasn't kept up with what customers want.
ethics_gradient
Well-known
My local store has great prices on bags - better than any online retailer (before shipping in many cases, even). Plus, I get to try them out and see if the size, fit and finish, etc are suitable to my needs. The people that work there are all very knowledgeable and courteous. I'd like to give them more of my business, but they've gotten almost completely out of film stuff, to the point of even re-naming themselves "North Tampa Digital Photography", so I'm limited to the very infrequent bag purchase, or a handful of developing supplies.
GoneSavage
not actually
I work in a locally owned camera store, and I think it's a great job. I get to teach people about photographic equipment while learning about it myself. I enjoy the challenge of finding any customer their perfect camera, and have no problem answering questions for hours. In general, I find that our customers are incredibly loyal; I can't count the number of times I have heard them remark about supporting local businesses, and whenever I do it always makes me proud.
However, I know that a large percentage of the people browsing our store do so to help them figure out how to spend their money online. While I don't necessarily agree with this practice, I understand that some people can't afford to shop locally. Maybe they don't deserve the advice we give, but Jamie is right in suggesting that we always have the opportunity to convince them to support us. If you're local shop owners are arrogant, then they probably don't deserve your business.
That said, tho WORST thing you can do to a salesperson that spends an hour helping you choose a camera is come back and tell them how you bought the thing on ebay. IT KILLS.
However, I know that a large percentage of the people browsing our store do so to help them figure out how to spend their money online. While I don't necessarily agree with this practice, I understand that some people can't afford to shop locally. Maybe they don't deserve the advice we give, but Jamie is right in suggesting that we always have the opportunity to convince them to support us. If you're local shop owners are arrogant, then they probably don't deserve your business.
That said, tho WORST thing you can do to a salesperson that spends an hour helping you choose a camera is come back and tell them how you bought the thing on ebay. IT KILLS.
Inphenity
Member
Al, This place is an oasis in a sea of drab, but if you ever decide to visit drop me a line
thetooth
Well-known
i rarely purchase new goods ( except for bulk film and developing chemicals ) from the local store , but i do frequent their consignment case .
the only reason i don't purchase new all the new camera are digital !!!
a small side story
i recently went in there and found a m2 with a 35mm summaron for a great price in their consignment case . i ended up buying the camera and telling the salesman more about the camera then he could tell me . on that same note if i was buying a new digital point and shoot he may have run circles around me explaining all the doo dads and gadgets pertaining to the camera .
the only reason i don't purchase new all the new camera are digital !!!
a small side story
i recently went in there and found a m2 with a 35mm summaron for a great price in their consignment case . i ended up buying the camera and telling the salesman more about the camera then he could tell me . on that same note if i was buying a new digital point and shoot he may have run circles around me explaining all the doo dads and gadgets pertaining to the camera .
Bob Michaels
nobody special
We have a good local shop, Colonial Photo & Hobby, in Orlando that I have traded with for well over 50 years. They are a well stocked Leica dealer. The owner died recently but the sons now run it. I used to ride my bike and buy model airplane supplies there back in the 50's. I try to support them.
But, every lens and body I have bought in the last ten years has been used. Just too many good film camera deals out there to buy new.
And, their film selection is good but the prices high. So I buy almost all my film in bulk on line for about half the price.
I make it a point that I will never ask to see a product there and then buy it on line. If I look or touch it there, and then buy it, I feel an obligation to buy it there. That is just fair.
We are fortunate to have a very good used camera dealer nearby. I visit there at least every every other week just to socialize. Lots of photographers hang out there on Saturdays. That owner and I are friends and have no problems loaning each other equipment for a week or so to try. He never charges me for cheap things like caps, hoods, filters. And I have no problems just giving him similar odds and ends that I find I have but cannot use. He gave me a nice Canonette GIII last year because he knew I wanted one. When his daughter was selling Girl Scout cookies, I helped her make her quota.
We are also fortunate in having a very good independent camera repair guy. I stop by to see him at least every other week or so. Sometimes bring beer since he is not open to the general public. In return, I get immediate service, usually free. Rangefinder alignment? Ten minutes, no cost.
I do everything I can to steer business to any of the above. They take care of me and I try to return the favors.
But, every lens and body I have bought in the last ten years has been used. Just too many good film camera deals out there to buy new.
And, their film selection is good but the prices high. So I buy almost all my film in bulk on line for about half the price.
I make it a point that I will never ask to see a product there and then buy it on line. If I look or touch it there, and then buy it, I feel an obligation to buy it there. That is just fair.
We are fortunate to have a very good used camera dealer nearby. I visit there at least every every other week just to socialize. Lots of photographers hang out there on Saturdays. That owner and I are friends and have no problems loaning each other equipment for a week or so to try. He never charges me for cheap things like caps, hoods, filters. And I have no problems just giving him similar odds and ends that I find I have but cannot use. He gave me a nice Canonette GIII last year because he knew I wanted one. When his daughter was selling Girl Scout cookies, I helped her make her quota.
We are also fortunate in having a very good independent camera repair guy. I stop by to see him at least every other week or so. Sometimes bring beer since he is not open to the general public. In return, I get immediate service, usually free. Rangefinder alignment? Ten minutes, no cost.
I do everything I can to steer business to any of the above. They take care of me and I try to return the favors.
kknox
kknox
I have bought & had many Leicas, & I do take service work to a local Seattle shop that is 1hr from my home. I have bought items from them & they have great information and can fix a 40yr old camera in a fair amount of time. Would I go into the shop & waste the salespersons time to get information & then go buy the same thing on the web or somewhere else for a little less no way. If I was looking for something he had at a fair price even a little more I would buy it from them. Someday all these shops will be gone & you guys will be bitching that there is no place to send your cameras or lens in for repair. Then you will all be stuck with Best buy & places like Costco to buy all your point & shoots, cause there will be no one left to sell you the high end stuff. If you think it will not ever happin look around. Support your local camera guys the best you can they have to eat also.