D3s verses D700 ... the pros and cons?

[Keith]

I'm having thoughts of upgrading from my D700 to a D3s and was wondering who here has used both cameras and can offer some opinons.

For gallery work 6400 ISO is marginal and shadows can often be very noisy so the reputed extra stop or so of the D3s could be useful. The other issue I face constantly is the tightrope of exposure I walk with the video screens in a near dark environment. I've discovered my employer is pretty touchy about over exposure on screen images which really lose detail if I don't get it dead right ... and the artists involved do tend to get their knickers in quite a twist if they don't see exactly what they expect with my documentations. I figure a genuine pro body with the correspondingly high frame rate should allow me to bracket more effectively which I don't bother to do with the D700 currently because it's pretty sluggish in this department.

I know the D3s would be bigger and heavier but these things are all over in an hour or two so the extra weight and bulk is doable.

If possible I'd quite like to see some samples from a D3s at 6400 and 12800 in very low lighting ... so post 'em if you've got them. Thanks in advance. 🙂

 

[kshapero]

Maybe Nikonians might have those comparisons.

 

[Frank Petronio]

After years of doing things the wrong way, I finally learned that it is better to hold onto the old camera you intend to replace and try the new "superior" camera out for a month or two before selling your old standby. If you can't afford to absorb the cost of owning two cameras for an extra month or two then perhaps your financial situation really isn't stable enough to justify looking at any new expenditures - a good sign to hold fast and make do, IMHO.

Unless of course it's for the amazingly wonderful Nikon Df that makes every other camera into a ridiculous toy and we all should buy three at 34% compounded ;-p

But seriously, shooting both cameras at the same time will give you absolutely the best decision making information. Would you really trust a bunch of armchair internet experts? Based on what I've read on the photos forums, I only agree with a small fraction of what is said, even by "experts", "pros", and "authors".

I wish I had compared the Blads versus the Mamiyas at the same time, the FM2 versus the F3, the M2 versus the M6, etc. it would have saved a lot of dicking around.

 

[nobbylon]

For an extra stop I wouldn't bother. I pondered the same question myself and decided to wait until I could get a D4. For noise in shadow I use Dfine at higher iso but I limit myself to 3200 anyway. I'm using 2.8 lenses normally, you?

 

[Highway 61]

I figure a genuine pro body with the correspondingly high frame rate should allow me to bracket more effectively which I don't bother to do with the D700 currently because it's pretty sluggish in this department.

Howzabout beginning with strongly using the D700 (sadly, not an analog dial as on the pure Nikon Df 😛) exposure compensation so that you never clip the highlights ?

If you shoot NEF, underexposing by 2/3 to 1 1/3 stops won't harm anything if you post-process the file properly... this, combined with some center-weighted metering where it ought to be (bright zones of your subject) should solve a great part of your problems. Matrix metering can't take some video screens around into account I'm afraid.

I've discovered my employer is pretty touchy (...)

Damn, really ? Although mine has nothing to do with photography, we might have the same one... 😀

 

[willie_901]

According to measurements reported by Bill Claff the D800 and D3S have identical dynamic range performance at ISOs above 1600 (about one stop better than the D700).

And below ISO 1600 the D800 has more DR than the D3S (not your highest priority though).

http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR.htm

As the D800 is lighter I wonder why you don't consider it.

 

[jljohn]

Keith,

I have a D3S and a D700 and I use them both regularly--for weddings and for day-to-day life. For several years, the D700 was my primary camera, but I've reached the point where, despite the size and weight, I will grab the D3S every time unless I need both to be operating simultaneously. The low light performance of the D3S is noticeably better than the D700. I feel like ISO 2000 is my wedding photography limit on the D700, but I can go to 3200 on the D3S with at least the same noise performance. I don't really ever shoot at 4000 or faster, so I can't offer opinions there, but I have been very pleased with the D3S when pitted against the D700. I can't say whether it's worth the $2,000 price difference between the two, but it's a great machine. The ergonomics of the D3S are another reason to consider the upgrade. Despite the larger size and greater weight, I find it easier to carry, hold, and use for 10-12 hours than the D700. That probably has more to do with the grip designed for a vertical orientation, but nonetheless I'd rather use it all day than the D700, especially with larger 1.4 primes or 2.8 zooms.

Best of luck with your decision!

Jeremy

 

[froyd]

After years of doing things the wrong way, I finally learned that it is better to hold onto the old camera you intend to replace and try the new "superior" camera out for a month or two before selling your old standby. If you can't afford to absorb the cost of owning two cameras for an extra month or two then perhaps your financial situation really isn't stable enough to justify looking at any new expenditures - a good sign to hold fast and make do, IMHO.

Great advice, and something I try to do myself... the only thing, is that this process requires more spine and less sticky fingers than those with which I'm endowed. The typical result is that I end up keeping everything that enters my house because I can see the unique advantages that each camera offers.

I'm sure Keith, and most other people, have more resolve than me, but sometimes having to stretch financially for the new camera is the only impetus I have to sell it or sell something else after the trial period ends!

I can see the dilemma being similar here: the D3 gives superior IQ performance, while the D700 is a better take-everywhere camera. Net net, keep one for the assignments mentioned in Keiths' OP, and keep the D700 for everything else. Hopefully the cost of D3 can be recovered quickly through paid work and written down as a business expense for accounting.

 

[L Collins]

The D3s is the one digital camera I'll use till it dies. first, it FEELS lke a real camera, almost indiatinguishable from an F5. Second, its low light capability is still among the best there is. Third, it has what I consider the sweet spot of full frame resolution -12 mp.

The d700 and d800 feel like cheap toys in comparision.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

I never would have been able to swing for a D3 (financially), but I looked into both and the thing that led me to the D700 was the sensor self-cleaning feature. It's not infallible, but it's something the D3 doesn't have. Otherwise, I have been quite happy with my D700 body. Just be aware that the Nikon leather comes unstuck after some use. I don't know if Jeremy experienced it but I did, only with my dSLR (I have an F100 and an F5 and nothing happened to either). Also, my 24-70 zoom showed the same problem (the rubber cover for the zoom and focusing rings is loose).

For a long time I pondered about replacing my D700 with a D3 in case the former dies, but since the Df came out, I think I'll get that one instead. For my needs and use, the D700 has been a godsend...

 

[SuperUJ]

Keith,

I went through the following in sequence and for the specific reasons:

D3 - Great camera for studio shooting but missing self sensor cleaning (sold)
D700 - Lighter body but the only 90% or 95% viewfinder did not work for me; could not get used to the buttons left to the viewfinder and the vertical grip did not work as well for me (sold)
D3s - A keeper for me

John

 

[Frank Petronio]

The D3s has sensor shake cleaning. Per Thom Hogan, the D3 and D3s occasionally require a wet cleaning because of thrown oil, not unlike the D600.

Hmm... dreams shattered....

 

[nobbylon]

I never would have been able to swing for a D3 (financially), but I looked into both and the thing that led me to the D700 was the sensor self-cleaning feature. It's not infallible, but it's something the D3 doesn't have. Otherwise, I have been quite happy with my D700 body. Just be aware that the Nikon leather comes unstuck after some use. I don't know if Jeremy experienced it but I did, only with my dSLR (I have an F100 and an F5 and nothing happened to either). Also, my 24-70 zoom showed the same problem (the rubber cover for the zoom and focusing rings is loose).

For a long time I pondered about replacing my D700 with a D3 in case the former dies, but since the Df came out, I think I'll get that one instead. For my needs and use, the D700 has been a godsend...

I replaced some of the rubber on my D700 as it does seem to swell and go soft with sweat and water etc. The rubber on my 24-70 seems fine at the moment.

 

[doolittle]

If possible I'd quite like to see some samples from a D3s at 6400 and 12800 in very low lighting ... so post 'em if you've got them. Thanks in advance. 🙂

For those kind of shots, check out the pixel-peeper website, you can do a search query for that exact criteria

 

[Keith]

The cost of a a used D3s appears to be between $3000 and $3500 from checking Aust eBay which is the way I'd go if I decided it was the right thing to do ... $6000 new is a bit of a stretch!

The other thing that appeals about the pro body is the extra controls for portrait orientation ... since damaging my shoulder I find shooting in portrait quite difficult because of the twist involved when holding the camera this way.

 

[Keith]

Howzabout beginning with strongly using the D700 (sadly, not an analog dial as on the pure Nikon Df 😛) exposure compensation so that you never clip the highlights ?

If you shoot NEF, underexposing by 2/3 to 1 1/3 stops won't harm anything if you post-process the file properly... this, combined with some center-weighted metering where it ought to be (bright zones of your subject) should solve a great part of your problems. Matrix metering can't take some video screens around into account I'm afraid.



Damn, really ? Although mine has nothing to do with photography, we might have the same one... 😀

It's not really a matter of clipping highlights, the problem is caused by the constantly changing content of the screens and the fact that I've locked exposure by the time I take the shot. If I've got a camera that can fire a rapid burst in bracketing mode it may offer a substantial advantage in terms of a better end result.

I really hate giving these people anything they're not totally happy with and some of the overseas video artists can be real PITAs. For some reason the Chinese are the worst! 😀

 

[Keith]

For an extra stop I wouldn't bother. I pondered the same question myself and decided to wait until I could get a D4. For noise in shadow I use Dfine at higher iso but I limit myself to 3200 anyway. I'm using 2.8 lenses normally, you?

I read somewhere that the D3s actually has better lowlight performance than the D4?

I use f2 for inside the gallery via a 35mm ZF Zeiss prime and for the shots outside where the presentation etc happens I use an F4 zoom because the light is pretty decent and I usually provide a couple of head shots of the various guest speakers.

 

[maitani]

Keith,
I had both for a while, then I noticed I don't need the 'backup' really, so I decided to part with my much loved D700 (i saw now point in the oversized battery grip...) so I kept the D3s also for following reasons.

- more battery power
- perfect ergonomics with the built in grip, smaller than you might think..
- 100% viewfinder
- video is nice to have occasionally, shooting FF video with zeiss primes is a joy
- i see rather 2 stops over the already excellent D700, files are amazing up to 6400, and usable up to the highest setting.
- dual card slot, with backup function
- more damped, and higher quality shutter
- much better fps, buffer etc.
- added customizability
- a little better built (environmental seals etc..)
- no built in flash

If you're getting paid for shooting, it's a no brainer imo, I've seen them around here for 2700$ - 2900$ occasionally prices have slightly fallen for all the hype around the new announcements, I've even seen D4 in the sub 4000 region. I still think the D3s hits the sweet spot of price and absolute quality in the nikon camp. it's basically at less than half the price as listprice now. (If you need the resolution I'd go for the D800 or a used D3x...) I could imagine working at lowest iso and tripod in museums..

- occasionally I miss the D700 when I stroll with just one lens, as its really compact (relatively spoken), so in those occasions I reach for something like the M8 or an M4.. for serious stuff, I only bring the D3s usually.