al1966
Feed Your Head
I used D76 or its cousin Ilfords ID11 for a long time I tried others but I just keep coming back. I am considering a different developer for the fp4 I have just bought and will be open to suggestions.
D76 or XTOL. Why?
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Klyment
Member
I use XTOL at stock concentration when pushing Ilford Delta 400 to 1600. It's currently my favourite high speed combination due to it's higher but very manageable contrast, pronounced and characteristic but non-detail-inhibiting grain structure, and much wider exposure latitude than D-76 and slightly wider latitude than HC-110. My previous favourite was HP5+ in Ilfosol S which has sadly been discontinued and was replaced with, in my opinion, an superior product for rated speed development but a highly-inferior product for push processing. I still have HC-110 around but since only 50L packs of XTOL were available locally I've been using XTOL most actively of my developers.
And I still use HC-110 in as high a dilution as I can and push HP5+ as fast as I can when shooting 4x5 in hopes of getting as much grain to be visible as possible.
And I still use HC-110 in as high a dilution as I can and push HP5+ as fast as I can when shooting 4x5 in hopes of getting as much grain to be visible as possible.
Mablo
Well-known
I've been using D-76 for several years as my 2nd developer (1st is Rodinal of course). However, recently I got excited of the idea to use Xtol replenished. Xtol is much easier to replenish than D-76. The few rolls I've developed so far have been good.
dfoo
Well-known
I used XTOL replenished for about a year and dropped it eventually when my negs got extremely thin. I recommend you read a very long post on APUG about using XTOL replenished. Personally I wouldn't do it again... there is no cost savings vs XTOL 1+2 one-shot, and I made some excellent images very hard to print... YMMV.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
How is that so?
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
It was designed to give similar tonality to D-76 with slightly finer grain, less toxicity, and slightly higher (1/3 stop was claimed if I remember right) effective film speed. Like D-76 it can be used straight or diluted 1+1. Early instructions from Kodak included instructions for dilutions of 1+2 and 1+3 but those were dropped because those dilutions often failed due to the user using too small a tank with them (there wasn't enough of the stock solution in the diluted working solution to fully develop film unless a larger tank with fewer films was used).
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Well, yes, I am aware of that. What I don't understand is how XTOL is "New Age".
And that is true, I stopped using XTOL after a few tries just because of that: I preferred using D-76 or Rodinal when not using Diafine (which is a completely different world)
DNG
Film Friendly
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I like D76 1:1 as I know what I get from it! Five decades of doing TriX in it gives me no surprises (dont want that when developing). I use other developers too, but my two "regulars" are Rodinal and D78.
Interesting that these two are also some of the oldest 'concoctions" in photography. Rodinal celebrated it's 120's birtday in January this year and D76 was formulated by Capstaff at Kodak in 1926 - 85 years old and still going strong. Initially it was made for movie stock - but when TriX showed up in 1954 as a 35mm film - it was a marriage made in heaven.
Interesting that these two are also some of the oldest 'concoctions" in photography. Rodinal celebrated it's 120's birtday in January this year and D76 was formulated by Capstaff at Kodak in 1926 - 85 years old and still going strong. Initially it was made for movie stock - but when TriX showed up in 1954 as a 35mm film - it was a marriage made in heaven.
Chris101
summicronia
From the Wikipedia article you referenced: "New Agers advocate living in a simple and sustainable manner to reduce humanity's impact on the natural resources of Earth;"
I believe that calling a chemical 'less toxic' indicates that using it will reduce its impact on the environment.
Finer grain and higher speeds seem to appeal to desires. Not very New Agey.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
That and reduce the health effects on users. We're exposed to this stuff every time we develop film, so the Xtol formula, based on Vitamin C and Dimezone (4-hydroxymethyl, 4-methyl, 1-phenyl, 3-pyrozolidone) is better in that effect. Dimezone and its relative, Phenidone (1-phenyl, 3-pyrozolidone) were once beleived to be completely nontoxic, which is no longer thought true but they're still less toxic than Metol or Hydroquinone
Chris101
summicronia
I agree Chris. For the one doing the developing, personal protective equipment is a must, as their exposure is thousands of times greater than is environmental exposure. A dust mask and nitrile gloves are essential. Chemical splash goggles (ANSI Z-81 compliant) should be used with highly alkaline solutions such as Rodinal. I always tell my (chemistry) students the first time they use it, "If you get sodium hydroxide in your eyes, take a quick look around, because that will be the last thing you see."
Speaking of Rodinal, I cringe at it's popularity. The main ingredients are sodium hydroxide and hydroxyaniline. The former, sodium hydroxide is a contact hazard - it'll cause your skin to crack and bleed, especially with multiple exposure. It feels like soap on your skin, because it is dissolving the fatty acids out of your cells, and making soap out of you.
Hydroxyaniline (aka para-amino phenol) is toxic in very small doses, and can be absorbed through the skin. The symptoms of a small dose are nausea, and loss of fluids. A large dose is usually fatal. It biodegrades very slowly, and is toxic to aquatic animals as well as the microorganisms that are used to break down sewage in waste treatment plants. Nasty, nasty stuff.
Speaking of Rodinal, I cringe at it's popularity. The main ingredients are sodium hydroxide and hydroxyaniline. The former, sodium hydroxide is a contact hazard - it'll cause your skin to crack and bleed, especially with multiple exposure. It feels like soap on your skin, because it is dissolving the fatty acids out of your cells, and making soap out of you.
Hydroxyaniline (aka para-amino phenol) is toxic in very small doses, and can be absorbed through the skin. The symptoms of a small dose are nausea, and loss of fluids. A large dose is usually fatal. It biodegrades very slowly, and is toxic to aquatic animals as well as the microorganisms that are used to break down sewage in waste treatment plants. Nasty, nasty stuff.
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Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Chris101
summicronia
Oooommmmmmmmmm.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Rodinal's concentrate is quite toxic, but diluted 1+50 or more, the Potassium Hydroxide (the packaged version switched to Potassium Hydroxide a very long time ago) is no longer that dangerous. Like acids, strong alkalines weaken with dilution. I did not know that the developing agent was that toxic in small doses! I've never heard it called Hydroxyaniline. Isn't the actual chemical name 1,4-diaminobenzene hydrochloride ? Almost all developers are benzene based. Metol, Hydroquinone, Phenidone, and Pyrogallol all are!
dfoo
Well-known
Here is the MSDS for Rodinal. Read it. http://www.madsens.com.au/new/darkroom/Agfa_SDS/MSDS Rodinal Concentrate.pdf
NickTrop
Veteran
D76 - because it tastes great (tough XTOL is less filling...)
W
wlewisiii
Guest
I have only used D76 of these two in the past. I will always keep as least some around as it's a near perfect least common denominator.
That said, I hope to send in an order to Photographer's Formulary very soon for the ingredients for Mytol (homebrew Xtol http://www.jackspcs.com/mytol.htm ) and give it a try that way.
That said, I hope to send in an order to Photographer's Formulary very soon for the ingredients for Mytol (homebrew Xtol http://www.jackspcs.com/mytol.htm ) and give it a try that way.
Chris101
summicronia
Thanks Chris. you are right. Rodinal IS made with potassium hydroxide (KOH) commercially, but I've made this developer with sodium hydroxide (NaOH) in the past, and it works the same. The two chemicals have very similar properties, with KOH being a bit cheaper, and a slightly greater contact hazard. Even at a fifty-fold dilution, one still needs to exercise caution with KOH (and NaOH.) Rodinal concentrate contains 9 molar KOH,. When diluted 1:50 this becomes 0.2 molar KOH. This is strong enough to severely damage eye tissue, and it's effect on skin will vary from individual to individual. With less than 15 minutes of flushing, KOH will remain in pores and cracks of the skin, where the water will be absorbed and evaporate. The KOH however will become more concentrated, eventually resulting in a chemical burn. Here is a picture of my right thumb's cuticle after exposure to 0.1 molar NaOH last Monday:
Had I been wearing gloves, this (albeit minor) injury would have been prevented.
No, 1,4-diaminobenzene (aka p-aminoaniline) is a diffrent molecule. Rodinal is p-hydroxyaniline (which is also called 4-aminophenol) dissolved in concentrated potassium hydroxide. (There are also some sulfite family ions in the solution to keep the developing agent from oxidizing in the bottle.)
Warning: optional science lesson:
Organic compounds with a benzene ring structure in them are called aromatic compounds. Not all of them smell, but the name began before organic chemists knew that much, and it remains in common use today. A benzene ring is six carbon atoms bonded together into a six membered ring. There is a hydrogen attached to each carbon. Think of a hexagonal shaped ferris wheel.
(I would bet that more that most organic compounds that are of commercial interest today are aromatic compounds.)
If a single hydrogen on a benzene ring is replaced by a nitrogen with two attached hydrogens (an 'amine' group), it is called aminobenzene, or by its common name, aniline. A benzene ring with a hydrogen replaced by an oxygen and a single hydrogen (a 'hydroxy' group) attached is called phenol. A benzene ring with two things attached opposite each other is referred to as being 'para' substituted. So a benzene ring with a hydroxy group attached opposite of an amine group can be called either para-aminophenol, or para-hydroxyaniline. In practice, one can drop positional prefixes, such as para, so long as all the compounds under discussion are para substituted. So calling the compound either aminophenol, or hydroxyaniline are both correct.
The hydrochloride part of the name, means that it crystallized from a hydrochloric acid solution, and that a single molecule of hydrochloric acid remains attached to the hydroxyaniline molecule in the solid, crystalline form. In Rodinal solution however, the hydrochloric acid is removed and neutralized by the KOH. In practice, the HCl is inconsequential, and only affects the weight of the hydroxyaniline used in formulation.
Hydroxyaniline works as a developer by losing two hydrogens to the hydroxide solvent. This neutralization reduces silver ions to silver metal. The compound mentioned by Chris Crawford, 1,4-diaminobenzene (also known as para-diaminobenzene, para-aminoaniline, or commonly as phenylenediamine), is actually C-41 developer, a more active developer than is hydroxyaniline.
Rodinal will reduce the silver (that is, develop the film) more slowly, and in a more controlled manner than will C-41 developer. C-41 will quickly reach completion, while Rodinal development can be halted (by neutralization with stop bath, or dilution with a couple water rinses) before all the available silver ions are reduced. The quicker crystallization of silver in the C-41 reaction means that the grains (silver crystals) from phenylenediamine reduction will be smaller than those formed by the action of hydroxyaniline.
Please note that my reference for the reactions of the two developers is the book, Fundamentals of Photographic Theory by T. H. James Ph.D. and George C. Higgins Ph. D. of the Research Laboratories of Eastman Kodak Co., copyright by the authors, 1968. My reference for the formulation of Rodinal is Jack's Photographic and Chemistry Site.
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Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Chris,
Thanks for the clarification. I did confuse the names of Phenylenediamine and Aminophenol...what I get for trying to recall complex chemical names in the middle of the night, lol.
I knew what Benzene is, its a remarkable chemical that is the basis of so much in the modern world. Photo developers are almost all benzene based, as are a lot of dyes, medicines, and a lot of other modern chemicals too. I am glad you explained what phenols and anilines are. I never knew why those names were used for some benzene based molecules!
Thanks for the clarification. I did confuse the names of Phenylenediamine and Aminophenol...what I get for trying to recall complex chemical names in the middle of the night, lol.
I knew what Benzene is, its a remarkable chemical that is the basis of so much in the modern world. Photo developers are almost all benzene based, as are a lot of dyes, medicines, and a lot of other modern chemicals too. I am glad you explained what phenols and anilines are. I never knew why those names were used for some benzene based molecules!