Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Look, Kevin.
It is COMPLETELY irrelevant what you payed for the camera and how much you invested in the CLA.
The only relevant thing is, is there somebody willing to pay 400-something dollars for your camera in the current state.
Fact is, it is NOT really worthy of investing in a CLA of a not too popular classic camera unless you want to keep it and use it. You just cannot sell it for a reasonable price.
People always want 'free lunch'. Here's my kowa six for months advertised. The opposite situation, and just as inefficient. I did NOT go for a shutter CLA in the two lenses, I stated the approx. CLA costs in the advertisement and waited for offers.
I had a few people half-interested, but it is not a popular camera so people wanted it practically for free, arguing that the cla would cost too much.
Now, if it was a Hasselblad...
It is COMPLETELY irrelevant what you payed for the camera and how much you invested in the CLA.
The only relevant thing is, is there somebody willing to pay 400-something dollars for your camera in the current state.
Fact is, it is NOT really worthy of investing in a CLA of a not too popular classic camera unless you want to keep it and use it. You just cannot sell it for a reasonable price.
People always want 'free lunch'. Here's my kowa six for months advertised. The opposite situation, and just as inefficient. I did NOT go for a shutter CLA in the two lenses, I stated the approx. CLA costs in the advertisement and waited for offers.
I had a few people half-interested, but it is not a popular camera so people wanted it practically for free, arguing that the cla would cost too much.
Now, if it was a Hasselblad...
Athos6
Tao Master
CLA has value
CLA has value
I would say that a CLA has value. If I were to sell my M2 after its DAG CLA, which its going through right now, I would list it at +300 what I paid for it so $1200 in mint- condition. I would continue to use it until someone wanted to pay my price. If no one wanted it...well all the better for me...i think I could learn to live with keeping it
. Some people believe that the buyer sets the price, its not true, when I sell stuff I always put a reserve on it (desired price+paypal and ebay fees) I usually get what I want, if not I keep it and pass the cost of the ad onto my next sale. I also hate hagglers, I make a habit of not selling to hagglers unless they end up bidding past my reserve. Back to the topic though, the CLA adds funtional value, since I'm not a collector, and usually put language in my ad to repell collectors, I sell mainly to users, so the CLA adds funtional value to them as well thus they eat the cost. IMO
Edit: this mindset only really works in you don't really CARE if you sell right away, if I NEED some quick cash, well some rules can be broken
CLA has value
I would say that a CLA has value. If I were to sell my M2 after its DAG CLA, which its going through right now, I would list it at +300 what I paid for it so $1200 in mint- condition. I would continue to use it until someone wanted to pay my price. If no one wanted it...well all the better for me...i think I could learn to live with keeping it
. Some people believe that the buyer sets the price, its not true, when I sell stuff I always put a reserve on it (desired price+paypal and ebay fees) I usually get what I want, if not I keep it and pass the cost of the ad onto my next sale. I also hate hagglers, I make a habit of not selling to hagglers unless they end up bidding past my reserve. Back to the topic though, the CLA adds funtional value, since I'm not a collector, and usually put language in my ad to repell collectors, I sell mainly to users, so the CLA adds funtional value to them as well thus they eat the cost. IMOEdit: this mindset only really works in you don't really CARE if you sell right away, if I NEED some quick cash, well some rules can be broken
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I just got two Leica IIIf's back from Youxin Ye. The cost of having them CLA'd and the beamsplitter replaced on one of them was very reasonable. About what most places charged 15 years ago. The shutter capping problem is gone on the one that I had problems with, the viewfinder and wind on the second are now perfect. They were back to me within two weeks, door-to-door.
kevin m
Veteran
I understand what you guys are saying about it being best to keep a camera that you CLA to get your money's worth; that's what I've done with all my Leica M's. I had this camera CLA'd to satisfy my curiosity, more than anything. I WOULD be keeping it if I could fit a diopter on it, because it's really smooth with a clear finder, but I hate shooting with my glasses on....
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
I understand what you guys are saying about it being best to keep a camera that you CLA to get your money's worth; that's what I've done with all my Leica M's. I had this camera CLA'd to satisfy my curiosity, more than anything. I WOULD be keeping it if I could fit a diopter on it, because it's really smooth with a clear finder, but I hate shooting with my glasses on....
Come on Kevin.. just pay for Lasik surgery
(if that'll fix the issue..) Dave
Alm3000
Member
A CLA is a CLA. I don't really think it matters where it was done, at least not to most people. I think the buyers mindset is when and why the seller got the CLA. If it was for his/her own satisfaction or specifically for the sale of the equipment. I for one think it is very important to know the camera was maintained and i don't care when and for what reason, but many depending on the reason for the CLA don't want to take on that extra cost if they don't have to..
Didier
"Deed"
If one does not appreciate the value of a Don Goldberg CLA, or not know the difference of before-CLA and after-CLA, then he does not deserve that camera. Period. I would't even answer such mails. Don makes a very excellent work, and his prices are more than moderate compared to what Leica charges for repairs.
I have given up selling gear at RFF for that reason. Undecided buyers who first p.m. urgently "Me first! I take it!!!", but afterwards do not really want to buy, or don't have the money for, try to dump the price as much as possible or beef around, and finally jump off (not without blaming you for "not being cooperative"). As much as I appreciate the discussions here, as much as dislike this behaviour.
Didier
I have given up selling gear at RFF for that reason. Undecided buyers who first p.m. urgently "Me first! I take it!!!", but afterwards do not really want to buy, or don't have the money for, try to dump the price as much as possible or beef around, and finally jump off (not without blaming you for "not being cooperative"). As much as I appreciate the discussions here, as much as dislike this behaviour.
Didier
I'd like to point out that some of us go through with every purchase that we send a PM on...
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
I've never had a problem with selling stuff on here. Some folks fish a bit, but that's to be expected. Perhaps you've had a string of bad luck?
Krosya
Konicaze
does everyone simply expect a "free lunch" when buying used gear?
You got it! Unfortunate, but true.
Okay- bottom line- you spent too much money on a 50 year old camera, and then sunk a lot of money into it for a premium CLA by one of the best in the industry. You will be able to recoupe about 60% of your cost at most, so you might as well keep it and enjoy it. As for the diopter- the eyepiece unscrews, so there has to be a way to get one onto it. Ask DAG or Sherry if something can be made up or adapted from another camera.
kevin m
Veteran
Hey, it's cheaper than a Noctilux....!
Didier
"Deed"
I guess so. After 3 or 4 tries to sell some gear (for a reasonable price, less than a auction on ebay might bring) I gave up (though my experiences as seller were always good - but I pm, then pay).
D.
kevin m
Veteran
D, I've experienced that, too. Someone will post "I'll take it!" in your ad, leading everyone to believe it's sold, then they'll pm you an offer much less than the asking price! Not cool.
David Murphy
Veteran
It adds to the value of some cameras more than others if it's professionally done (and that's a big IF). It does not add nearly as much to the value of say a Leica IIIa as does to an Leica M3. Shutter curtain replacement as part of the CLA can often boost the value. The whole thing is very much like fixing up an old car or an old house -- it's rarely good as an investment unless one purchased the house or car at a very low price to start with. This seems to be economics and human nature.
I've bought lenses and cameras on eBay that were said to have been CLA'ed and were obviously in need of repair when received. Even worse, some items are "CLA'ed" by the owner who is often a rank amateur with some spanner wrenches. This may be another reason why the CLA claim on used items is not as valued as could be. However, at least speaking personally, if someone HERE says their item was CLA'ed at DAG -- that's a big plus for me and I'll pay more.
I've bought lenses and cameras on eBay that were said to have been CLA'ed and were obviously in need of repair when received. Even worse, some items are "CLA'ed" by the owner who is often a rank amateur with some spanner wrenches. This may be another reason why the CLA claim on used items is not as valued as could be. However, at least speaking personally, if someone HERE says their item was CLA'ed at DAG -- that's a big plus for me and I'll pay more.
I picked up a Nicca 3, Made In Occupied Japan with a Collapsible Nikkor 5cm F2 on it at a great price, much less than the lens alone was worth. The lens had a lot of haze in it, and was listed "as Is". The Camera had bad curtains. It look me 15 minutes to clean the lens back to perfection, took it apart, haze came out, no coating damage on the 1948 lens. I was way ahead on that deal.
So the Little Nicca was useless, and the lens went beautifully on my Canon. Poor little camera, I couldn't stand it looking so sad. Dropped $200 on it to replace the curtains, bring back to good working order. Put a coated Summitar on it. I'll never get the money back out of the body. So what, it's a piece of history and now works like it's supposed to.
So the Little Nicca was useless, and the lens went beautifully on my Canon. Poor little camera, I couldn't stand it looking so sad. Dropped $200 on it to replace the curtains, bring back to good working order. Put a coated Summitar on it. I'll never get the money back out of the body. So what, it's a piece of history and now works like it's supposed to.
back alley
IMAGES
i have bought and sold a fair amount of gear on this board and never had a problem.
as a seller, i have never been low balled and as a buyer i have followed through on the deals that i entered into. in fact, some of the things that have happened here, to me, have been remarkable. some folks have sent me the item before i sent the $$. some have waited till paydays so that i could buy their item, despite knowing they could have made a quicker deal. some people have even contacted me directly knowing that i was looking for something in particular. i even had one guy who sent me 3 lenses just to try because i was curious about them. no money changed hands and i didn't have to send off my first born for collateral!
all in all this is a pretty good bunch.
but...be careful who you are dealing with!
someone who just joined and their first post is a classified is not someone i would normally deal with. you have to be careful and follow your gut.
as to the original topic...when i go to buy a used car and the sales person tells me of all the wonderful features this car has, i immediately discount what he says by telling him i have no real interest in ... whatever. take the steam out...
as for a used camera, sure i would prefer a camera with a recent cla but i certainly wont pay for the whole thing. i would pay for part of it along with a fair price for the item but that's it.
joe
as a seller, i have never been low balled and as a buyer i have followed through on the deals that i entered into. in fact, some of the things that have happened here, to me, have been remarkable. some folks have sent me the item before i sent the $$. some have waited till paydays so that i could buy their item, despite knowing they could have made a quicker deal. some people have even contacted me directly knowing that i was looking for something in particular. i even had one guy who sent me 3 lenses just to try because i was curious about them. no money changed hands and i didn't have to send off my first born for collateral!
all in all this is a pretty good bunch.
but...be careful who you are dealing with!
someone who just joined and their first post is a classified is not someone i would normally deal with. you have to be careful and follow your gut.
as to the original topic...when i go to buy a used car and the sales person tells me of all the wonderful features this car has, i immediately discount what he says by telling him i have no real interest in ... whatever. take the steam out...
as for a used camera, sure i would prefer a camera with a recent cla but i certainly wont pay for the whole thing. i would pay for part of it along with a fair price for the item but that's it.
joe
David Murphy
Veteran
The Kowa Six is apparently pretty routine to work on. I know a guy that CLA's them all the time. Parts if needed (and often they are not) can come from other Kowa's.
I've found that DAG is the guy to go to when you've got a tough problem -- old stuff and rare stuff. He's amazing -- as I've said before a national treasure - I don't care how long he takes to get it right.
I've found that DAG is the guy to go to when you've got a tough problem -- old stuff and rare stuff. He's amazing -- as I've said before a national treasure - I don't care how long he takes to get it right.
Eric T
Well-known
I don't worry about whether a CLA will enhance the value of one of my cameras. I get a CLA because I want to restore the camera to excellent working condition. I buy and CLA the cameras I have because I enjoy them, not because I am looking at them as an investment in any way.
If I started thinking about this hobby as an investment, all of the fun would be gone!
Eric
If I started thinking about this hobby as an investment, all of the fun would be gone!
Eric
David Murphy
Veteran
Yes I feel pretty much the same way. It lends great peace-of-mind when using them. I still contend though that on certain cameras (most notably Leica M) the CLA cost can be largely if not entirely recouped on sale. Of course of all the cameras I've sold I've found Leica M's to be about the easiest to sell overall -- the demand for the M2 and M3 is still extraordinary.
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