DAG CLA has "no value?"

[CK Dexter Haven]

"... (to me) your title sounds like you're specifically calling Don's CLA worthless and he's out of the business."

My impression, as well. Sorta. Question marks or no question marks. Besides that, this really has nothing to do with DAG, specifically. We're talking about CLAs, in general, done by anyone, right?

I'm not sure this even warrants a reply/discussion, though. There are always some buyers who want/don't want, or value/don't value ANY particular feature, characteristic, or potential 'selling point.' It doesn't seem to be unanimous in any respect. Some people discount CLAs, because they didn't commission the work themselves, and it may not have been done by a person of their choosing. Some people might discount it because they're not convinced the claim is authentic. Some people might not believe cameras require CLAs, especially those coming from backgrounds where they've only used more contemporary cameras. No one CLAs a Canon EOS, for example. Or, any digital.

As Leicasniper said, the CLA decision is personal. I'm buying a camera that i expect to be in a certain condition when i receive it. A CLA is no real guarantee that it will last longer than a camera without one. [Are they warranteed? And, transferable?] And, i still have to test the camera myself anyway. Not because i wouldn't believe the CLA had been done, but who knows what happens after the CLA, or in shipping. And, who knows if the previous owner's standards are the same as my own? I wouldn't pay more for a CLAd camera either. For me, a Mint camera has a certain value. A worn camera has a certain value. I wouldn't pay Mint prices for a worn camera + CLA.

But, whatever. Maybe you just got hit by a few actual idiots. That's going to happen. The average IQ is 100....

 

[xayraa33]

I think it matters who done the CLA and what type of CLA was done.
A "Shanghai Special" oil bath CLA will make a camera worthless.

 

[raid]

I bought an Elmar 5cm/2.8 for $300 that has just been serviced for $265. I viewed it as a bargain deal since a first class repairman replaced the fron glass element and has also adjusted the lens for wonderful optical performance. A "DAG" or "Sherry Krauter" or similar level label should add a lot of value to any lens or camera.

 

[David Goldfarb]

I'm willing to pay a little extra for a recent documented CLA from a known technician specializing in that kind of equipment (otherwise I factor a CLA into the purchase price, and if the service is unnecessary consider it found money), but in my experience of buying and selling on the net, few people are willing to pay for that.

 

[sienarot]

I'd say point these people into the direction of "minty" ebay auctions. Of course a CLA has a significant value on the camera. Fortunately there are many of us who are willing to pay that extra bit for a peace of mind knowing we'd be getting a working camera.

 

[Jamie123]

I do understand the argument that a CLA isn't worth much. Let's say camera X in perfect working condition typically sells for $500 on the used market. Now why should someone pay $650 for a CLA'd one? After all a CLA'd camera is nothing more than a camera that's working properly.

The question is why did you CLA the camera prior to selling it? Was it not working properly? If that is the case then the CLA actually did add value. It brought the camera into the category of working ones and can now sell at a price that these cameras usually sell at.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

So how much is a good looking Canon VI-T with CLA worth.

I paid $140 for my Canon VI-T off of Ebay, good working condition, finder was a little hazy and it had not been serviced in a longtime. But it still worked, all speeds looked good. I paid $120 more for a CLA for it at Essex in New Jersey. Came back in top condition, finder sparkled. It's worked great for the several years that I've owned it. So for well under $300, I've got a good looking Canon VI-T with a recent CLA.

 

[dcsang]

I do understand the argument that a CLA isn't worth much. Let's say camera X in perfect working condition typically sells for $500 on the used market. Now why should someone pay $650 for a CLA'd one? After all a CLA'd camera is nothing more than a camera that's working properly.

The question is why did you CLA the camera prior to selling it? Was it not working properly? If that is the case then the CLA actually did add value. It brought the camera into the category of working ones and can now sell at a price that these cameras usually sell at.

Ahhhh.. well.."there's the rub" right?

Sure it was working "properly" but everyone's version of "properly" differs imho. Getting a CLA prior to selling the camera ensures (as long as, as Fred has mentioned, that the person doing the CLA is well known) that, regardless of cosmetic condition, the mechanical functions of the camera are up to spec. and therefore "working properly" to you, me, and everyone else who intends on using the camera. Collectors will look upon such things, as has been discussed here, differently.

As others have said, to some sellers (especially some Ebayers - even those with very good feedback) hearing the camera shutter fire and knowing that the winding mechanism winds would be "working properly". The fact that the 1 second shutter speed may be 1/2 a second off in either direction is difficult to tell for a lot of folks. The small pin prick in the edge of the shutter curtain that may or may not show up on film as flare may not be picked up by a lot of of folks yet to the seller, the camera is "working properly".

So with a CLA done on the camera, at least the playing field is leveled for all that are interested in the camera.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[awilder]

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't the knurled knob on the top right position allow for top winding as well, albeit finger instead of lever wind? Also, I think the "Mg" position corresponds to a 100 mm lens field with a magnification of 1.55x. In some ways, this camera was better than the 7 which was much larger partly to accommodate the inboard meter and had no accessory shoe untill the 7S came out. The more popular "P" was a cheaped version of the VI-L by simplifying the finder with combined rather than separate fields.

 

[funkaoshi]

The solution here is to simply not sell to people who don't think the money you invested in a CLA is worth anything to them. It's very easy to ignore low-ball offers.

When I bought my M2 from a forum member here, he mentioned it was recently CLA'd by Youxin Ye. I thought this was a big plus, as I was much more confident I could start shooting with the thing right away.

And as others have said, this is a horrible title for this post, unless you were wondering if DAG was dead?

 

[planetjoe]

I don't buy cameras that have had a CLA, regardless of who did it, if it significantly increases the price. I'd rather have the choice to use it as is, or have a CLA done myself if I want to.

(...)

O.k. So I'm weird.

Actually, I think there's something to this, if my own tendencies are any indication. When I'm looking for 50+ year old cameras (let's say), I'm probably looking to find one below current prices. Thankfully, RFF seems to be a place where such things occur, but I digress.

What's of real value to me is whether the current owner has been using it, shooting with it, and can state that all the important bits are working. Of course, I've got to trust that current owner, which is another plus for dealing on RFF.

This isn't to say that a CLA doesn't add value; quite the opposite. The fact that I can make my own decision on whether to have one done means that I might pass up the serviced camera for a user.

Note also that I'm not a professional, and don't make money off my gear. My attitude would be different, certainly, if I did.


Cheers,
--joe.

 

[kevin m]

...as others have said, this is a horrible title for this post, unless you were wondering if DAG was dead?

I guess all the punctuation in the world won't help if one is determined not to read it.

My point was that I assumed that a DAG (or Sherry) CLA was worth a good deal amongst a knowledgeable crowd, but if that's not the case, then I wonder if perhaps his days are numbered. (And yes, I have the receipt: here's a link to the ad: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/10316/cat/3)

 

[kevin m]

...as a sidenote, are you aware that there's about a 3-month wait to get a camera back from Don?

 

[xayraa33]

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't the knurled knob on the top right position allow for top winding as well, albeit finger instead of lever wind? Also, I think the "Mg" position corresponds to a 100 mm lens field with a magnification of 1.55x. In some ways, this camera was better than the 7 which was much larger partly to accommodate the inboard meter and had no accessory shoe untill the 7S came out. The more popular "P" was a cheaped version of the VI-L by simplifying the finder with combined rather than separate fields.

The problem with the VT and VIT Canons is that the winder is fixed to the body and cannot be removed if not wanted.
It adds extra weight and bottomwinder use is not liked by everyone.

 

[Rey]

I'd expect to pay more for a CLA'd camera, but I wouldn't want to pay more by the full price of the CLA. If that were the case, I could just by something on e-bay with sticky shutter speeds and pay for the CLA myself.

 

[swoop]

The CLA has value. They're lying. Maybe in some twisted way they're confused. But when you're buying a camera 20+ years old. You want to know it works. The CLA guarantees that. You know the camera has been serviced. Sure, maybe it has no monetary value. But it's like insurance. And I'm sure everyone here would much rather buy a camera that has been CLA'd rather than one that hasn't. I have a 50mm summitar that was CLA'd while owned by the last owner, David Murphy. I don't have documents to prove it. But I have no reason to suspect he lied and the lens is in tip top condition. Much better looking than the other ones I saw being peddled that hadn't been CLA'd.

Just hold onto it, and a buyer will come along that knows the value of piece of mind and a properly working instrument.

And as for DAG being dead. Or other camera service people. Far from it. Even if a CLA carried no resale value. I'd still do it. I doubt many folks service their camera for solely resale value. They do it because it keeps the camera in good condition. I personally plan to send all my lenses in sometime next year when I have the cash for a bit of maintenance. Because I want my lenses to last forever.

 

[kevin m]

The problem with the VT and VIT Canons is that the winder is fixed to the body and cannot be removed if not wanted.

Or it's very nicely integrated, depending on your POV.

 

[xayraa33]

Or it's very nicely integrated, depending on your POV.

I happen to like the VT and VIT, I have both models and use them, but it would have been nice if the winder was removable at the owners choice if one wanted a lighter more compact rig.
My Canon IIF2 with winder gives me that option.

 

[ERV]

Although I would pay a little more for a camera with a CLA from a Youxin, Dag, or Sherry, its been my experience as a seller that you never fully recover the cost of a CLA.
This is particularly true with less common cameras like a Canon V1-T.
I like user grade M bodies- particularly the M5- that I find for reasonable (cheap) prices, however a CLA by Sherry will elevate them into a price range that most people would avoid due to the appearence factor, even if they were serviced by a Leica trained expert. So, I'm stuck with them..

 

[ampguy]

Kevin,

Put the camera in the auctions or for trade, and I'll bid in the auction if the starting price is reasonable, or I'll trade you for $400 worth of original 8x10 prints delivered to your local Walgreens or Costco.

I don't even know what the VT1 is, does it take LTM lenses or what?

If it's not selling for what you think it is worth, then you're pricing it too high for the classified viewers here. Did you put it on other auction or sales sites with higher visibility? Maybe a Canon forum??

I have to agree that CLA's don't recover their expenses when the products are sold. Not sure exactly why, but could be that a lot of folks care more about looks than functionality??

I bought a camera here and had it CLA'd by Sherry Krauter, ended up selling it for 1/2 of the CLA price. That's the way it goes. Only CLA something you're going to keep and use, not something you're planning on reselling, in my experience, for best financial ROI.