drmatthes
Zeiss Addict
Hello to the community,
as a youngster to this very special forum, I am coming up with a marginal problem.
I own a Contax II with a Biogon 1:2,8 / 3,5 cm Jena T #2673014, also marked on the shaft (the funny piece going back some three cm into the camera body) #673014 (see pictures).
When was this one produced?
As far as I understand, Carl Zeiss Jena introduced lens coating (T) some time in 1935, but not covering the whole production, and after 1939 the coating process was declared "eyes only" and attached to military purposes, mainly with the German marines, so that very few (if any) coated lenses reached the wartime civilian market. On the other hand, the serial number of the lens points to the ominous year of 1940 (serial numbers of 1939 ending with #2651211, and 1941 starting with #2678326 (serial numbers for 1940 itself have obviously been lost).
So, is this one wartime or post-war? (Material is brass, not aluminium).
It's not of REAL impotance to me, but it's to do a bit with family history. Great-Grand-Aunt Hanna used to own a Contax that was "found" by American troops on April 11, 1944, and made for the U.S. (the camera, not the aunt), so I keep getting involved with the stuff not only for the beauty of the cameras.
Hey you people in the U.S., no leg-pulling, my folks have done things unspeakably worse than that, a shame that never can be resolved or reconciliated, and that's a different story. Anybody thought of what might have been photographed with these vintage cameras?
Apart from that: Any ideas on the lens?
Thanx!
as a youngster to this very special forum, I am coming up with a marginal problem.
I own a Contax II with a Biogon 1:2,8 / 3,5 cm Jena T #2673014, also marked on the shaft (the funny piece going back some three cm into the camera body) #673014 (see pictures).
When was this one produced?
As far as I understand, Carl Zeiss Jena introduced lens coating (T) some time in 1935, but not covering the whole production, and after 1939 the coating process was declared "eyes only" and attached to military purposes, mainly with the German marines, so that very few (if any) coated lenses reached the wartime civilian market. On the other hand, the serial number of the lens points to the ominous year of 1940 (serial numbers of 1939 ending with #2651211, and 1941 starting with #2678326 (serial numbers for 1940 itself have obviously been lost).
So, is this one wartime or post-war? (Material is brass, not aluminium).
It's not of REAL impotance to me, but it's to do a bit with family history. Great-Grand-Aunt Hanna used to own a Contax that was "found" by American troops on April 11, 1944, and made for the U.S. (the camera, not the aunt), so I keep getting involved with the stuff not only for the beauty of the cameras.
Hey you people in the U.S., no leg-pulling, my folks have done things unspeakably worse than that, a shame that never can be resolved or reconciliated, and that's a different story. Anybody thought of what might have been photographed with these vintage cameras?
Apart from that: Any ideas on the lens?
Thanx!
Bobbo
Well-known
Contax only coated one lens, the 50/1.5 Sonnar, before and during the war. I'm pretty certain this is post-war. Scrool hafway down THIS LINK and you can read about post-war lenses.
It is a very nice lens with a very good design, and it looks like it's in good shape. I have a russian copy, and it's a darn good and sharp lens...I think I got a good one
. Maybe get a CLA for it to get rid of the small amount of oil on the aperture blades, and to clean the chrome up a tad, and it will be a very good shooter.
As for things photographed with vintage cameras, Robert Capa carried a pair of Contax II's when he went ashore for D-Day...if your camera has lots of abuse and salt-water damage, you might have one of his.
On a side note, I don't think anyone in the US on this forum will joke about the "found" part. A lot of shit happened sixty years ago, and there isn't anything one now can do about it. It's in the past, and I hope we can learn from it and solve more conflicts using words instead of bullets.
Enjoy the lens,
Bob Clark
It is a very nice lens with a very good design, and it looks like it's in good shape. I have a russian copy, and it's a darn good and sharp lens...I think I got a good one
. Maybe get a CLA for it to get rid of the small amount of oil on the aperture blades, and to clean the chrome up a tad, and it will be a very good shooter. As for things photographed with vintage cameras, Robert Capa carried a pair of Contax II's when he went ashore for D-Day...if your camera has lots of abuse and salt-water damage, you might have one of his
. On a side note, I don't think anyone in the US on this forum will joke about the "found" part. A lot of shit happened sixty years ago, and there isn't anything one now can do about it. It's in the past, and I hope we can learn from it and solve more conflicts using words instead of bullets.
Enjoy the lens,
Bob Clark
JJW
Established
Your lens is East German made after the war
Your lens is East German made after the war
Your lens is post war and made by Zeiss Jena in the GDR, the former East Germany.
http://www.company7.com/zeiss/history.html
Your lens is East German made after the war
Your lens is post war and made by Zeiss Jena in the GDR, the former East Germany.
http://www.company7.com/zeiss/history.html
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Great info, JJW. Thanks for the link.
Mike Kovacs
Contax Connaisseur
I feel this is not a postwar Jena Biogon lens. I suggest you visit yahoogroups.com and post in the Zeiss Ikon Collectors Group (ZICG) with the front serial number and a good description. Barringer and Small (co-authors of the Zeiss Compedium) hang-out there, among other notable collectors and experts. They will know.
Is the lens light aluminum alloy or heavy chrome on brass construction? The prewar lenses are always heavy chrome on brass. During the actual war, production numbers were low and some lenses were made in alloy. Almost all postwar CZ Jena lenses are of cheap aluminum construction.
Is the lens light aluminum alloy or heavy chrome on brass construction? The prewar lenses are always heavy chrome on brass. During the actual war, production numbers were low and some lenses were made in alloy. Almost all postwar CZ Jena lenses are of cheap aluminum construction.
Mazurka
Well-known
Bobbo said:
First, Contax never did anything , being a brand name only. Carl Zeiss Jena and Oberkochen were the lens makers for the Contax bodies, Zeiss Ikon Dresden and Stuttgart were the camera makers.
Second, the 50mm Sonnar was not the only war-time lens to receive coating. http://www.cameraquest.com/zeiss852.htm
dexdog
Veteran
I would vote for pre-WW2 or during WW2 as to time of manufacture. Hints include
1. brass construction- most post-war lenses are alloy, and a lot of the 1940-1945 lenses are alloy too.
2. Serial number is below 3 million- not defintive, but usually a good indicator
3. Pre-WW2 Biogon 35mm design, with rear lens group extending beyond lens housing. The post-war CZJ and Russian version (Jupiter) also display this design, though, so this is not a definitive indicator, but a clue.
Given the above, I think it's pre- 1945. Also agree with Mike's suggestion about the ZI collectors group.
dexdog
1. brass construction- most post-war lenses are alloy, and a lot of the 1940-1945 lenses are alloy too.
2. Serial number is below 3 million- not defintive, but usually a good indicator
3. Pre-WW2 Biogon 35mm design, with rear lens group extending beyond lens housing. The post-war CZJ and Russian version (Jupiter) also display this design, though, so this is not a definitive indicator, but a clue.
Given the above, I think it's pre- 1945. Also agree with Mike's suggestion about the ZI collectors group.
dexdog
Crowley
Newbie
Why don't you just send an email to carl zeiss with the serial number of the lens
I did it once to date a Tessar from one of my werra's and they reply'ed a day later with the production date.
Thats's what i call deutsche grundlichkeit
succes
I did it once to date a Tessar from one of my werra's and they reply'ed a day later with the production date.
Thats's what i call deutsche grundlichkeit
succes
drmatthes
Zeiss Addict
Ok guys, thanx a lot so far!
Bobbo, you're darn right about the historical side of collecting vintage cameras. Let's keep shooting - pictures, pulling releases - not triggers. :angel:
JJW vs Mazurka (love your Avatar, Mazurka!!): Seems I have come across coated wartime lenses other than the 1.5/5cm Sonnar myself in the meantime.
Leicashop in Vienna, Austria, actually are offering one of the Biogons (unfortunately no photo available) as "wartime coated", the link being
http://www.leicashop.com/cgi-bin/le...011&id=9597-9&code=20060121235540217251011154
Mike, mine is definitely chrome on brass. I had my hands on one of the aluminium things on Hannover Vintage Camera Fair before X-mas and that was a LOT lighter than mine, thought I break it while trying to screw it on the outer bajonet mount of my Contax II. - So I feel my Biogon is wartime, not post-war. I kept to your recommendation to join the yahoo ZICG, but it seems easyer to me to get the gold out of Fort Knox than to enter the ZICG forum... Still flying rounds, waiting for my landing slot.
Very lately, I came across PhotoDeal, a Germany based vintage camera magazine. I found an ad in the I/2006 issue, stating a guy from Munich rediscovered the complete Zeiss Jena manufacturing lists (where?) and has published three volumes with lens serial numbers and production years. Sorry, I don't have the issue with me now but I will post the detailed information later on tomorrow.
For now gn8,
Jesko
________________________
2006 AD:
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
Bobbo, you're darn right about the historical side of collecting vintage cameras. Let's keep shooting - pictures, pulling releases - not triggers. :angel:
JJW vs Mazurka (love your Avatar, Mazurka!!): Seems I have come across coated wartime lenses other than the 1.5/5cm Sonnar myself in the meantime.
Leicashop in Vienna, Austria, actually are offering one of the Biogons (unfortunately no photo available) as "wartime coated", the link being
http://www.leicashop.com/cgi-bin/le...011&id=9597-9&code=20060121235540217251011154
Mike, mine is definitely chrome on brass. I had my hands on one of the aluminium things on Hannover Vintage Camera Fair before X-mas and that was a LOT lighter than mine, thought I break it while trying to screw it on the outer bajonet mount of my Contax II. - So I feel my Biogon is wartime, not post-war. I kept to your recommendation to join the yahoo ZICG, but it seems easyer to me to get the gold out of Fort Knox than to enter the ZICG forum... Still flying rounds, waiting for my landing slot.
Very lately, I came across PhotoDeal, a Germany based vintage camera magazine. I found an ad in the I/2006 issue, stating a guy from Munich rediscovered the complete Zeiss Jena manufacturing lists (where?) and has published three volumes with lens serial numbers and production years. Sorry, I don't have the issue with me now but I will post the detailed information later on tomorrow.
For now gn8,
Jesko
________________________
2006 AD:
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
Huck Finn
Well-known
jimi54
Newbie
It's pretty sure that lenses under serial of 3.000.000 are pre-war .The red T was in use not only for the 50 1,5 but for many others too.Brass or alloy is not as well indictor of a pre/post war production.The lens in your own seems to be a genuine pre-war carl zeiss.
The problem is that actually we can see a lot of lenses offered on ebay auctions by russian sellers that appears to be counterfeit. with a new ring with new engravings it' seems possible to sell russian lenses as genuine pre-war carl zeiss.Due to the war difficulties to get brass in war time there are a lot of Hybrid barrels on the market.Most of them are genuine but many not.
It's a long story that about counterfeit or retro-dateted lenses for contax.We could talk many more times about this problem, thare are unknown informations that could explain more.
Maurizio
The problem is that actually we can see a lot of lenses offered on ebay auctions by russian sellers that appears to be counterfeit. with a new ring with new engravings it' seems possible to sell russian lenses as genuine pre-war carl zeiss.Due to the war difficulties to get brass in war time there are a lot of Hybrid barrels on the market.Most of them are genuine but many not.
It's a long story that about counterfeit or retro-dateted lenses for contax.We could talk many more times about this problem, thare are unknown informations that could explain more.
Maurizio
jimi54
Newbie
a brief history of carl zeiss serials for contax rangefinder:
till serial 3.000.000 the production was in west germany and built in pre-war or war-time.
After 3.000.000 production continue in east germany with agreement of the reborn zeiss in west germany.Many lenses were built in east germany to supply the first contax bodies.Only few years later zeiss was able to product itself new lenses and started with new serial nubers an a new name."opton zeiss" started with completely new serials probably with 5 digits.Later name will Change in "carl zeiss" but serial will continue with the new ones.
Carl zeiss jena in east germany will continue le production for contax rangefinder for some years and will start production for many other cameras using the old pre-war serial numbers.So all lenses with serial over 3.000.000 were built with no discussion in east germany.
So at finally it's asy to detect if one lens is a genuine west or a east production.
It remeins opened the question about counterfeit, and that's another question.
Maurizio
till serial 3.000.000 the production was in west germany and built in pre-war or war-time.
After 3.000.000 production continue in east germany with agreement of the reborn zeiss in west germany.Many lenses were built in east germany to supply the first contax bodies.Only few years later zeiss was able to product itself new lenses and started with new serial nubers an a new name."opton zeiss" started with completely new serials probably with 5 digits.Later name will Change in "carl zeiss" but serial will continue with the new ones.
Carl zeiss jena in east germany will continue le production for contax rangefinder for some years and will start production for many other cameras using the old pre-war serial numbers.So all lenses with serial over 3.000.000 were built with no discussion in east germany.
So at finally it's asy to detect if one lens is a genuine west or a east production.
It remeins opened the question about counterfeit, and that's another question.
Maurizio
drmatthes
Zeiss Addict
ZI LENS SERIAL NUMBER REFERENCE BOOK
To cut a long story short, here is the probably ultimative link to answering my own and most other similar questions (letting alone the puzzling fact that there seems to be quite a number of lens fakes around):
Thiele's Zeiss Lens reference book under
http://www.lindemanns.de/4DCGI/689197876/TitelAnzeige/347837
It is in German but as it contains lists with lens types, serial numbers and production years this should be no problem.
The content is already being discussed in the Zeiss Ikon Collectors Group at Yahoo (to which I finally managed to subscribe), and I think I will be going to order a copy. When I've done so, I will come back, possibly with a new thread or offer to answer silly questions like mine for others seeking lens information.
Thank you all for now,
Jesko
__________________
2006 AD
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
To cut a long story short, here is the probably ultimative link to answering my own and most other similar questions (letting alone the puzzling fact that there seems to be quite a number of lens fakes around):
Thiele's Zeiss Lens reference book under
http://www.lindemanns.de/4DCGI/689197876/TitelAnzeige/347837
It is in German but as it contains lists with lens types, serial numbers and production years this should be no problem.
The content is already being discussed in the Zeiss Ikon Collectors Group at Yahoo (to which I finally managed to subscribe), and I think I will be going to order a copy. When I've done so, I will come back, possibly with a new thread or offer to answer silly
questions like mine for others seeking lens information.Thank you all for now,
Jesko
__________________
2006 AD
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
jimi54
Newbie
hello
not found jesko, the link drive me into a site but i can't find the reference bookk.
Would be nice to get a refined search.
Maurizio
not found jesko, the link drive me into a site but i can't find the reference bookk.
Would be nice to get a refined search.
Maurizio
drmatthes
Zeiss Addict
Ok, Maurizio,
I see the problem. The link is correct but due to some java or frame it only leads you to the start page again.
The written reference is:
THIELE, Hartmut: Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik
Vol. I - Carl Zeiss Jena 1890-1927, Munich 2005, €29.80.- (pre Zeiss Ikon)
Vol. II - Carl Zeiss Jena 1927-1991, Munich 2005, €49.80.- (Zeiss Ikon to VEB Carl Zeiss)
Vol. III - Carl Zeiss Oberkochen 1948-1996, Munich 2005, €29.80.- (the West German Zeiss)
Unfortunately these are private prints by the author and are not registered under an ISBN.
Therefore I assume that one can only order the books via the complicated link I have tried to embed in my post.
It's a bit difficult to explain how to find the book because the site is in German. I'll try anyway:
Left-click the Star Spangled Banner (for a while, you can use English then - until you come to the book description again, obviously the thing is under construction).
On the following page, enter "Thiele" in the fast search box in the upper left corner and click "Start search".
You will then find thumbnails of the books by Hartmut Thiele; the three books dealing with Carl Zeiss are in a yellowish ochre tone. Just click them to see details - in German.
A second problem: The ordering form is not working properly in the English version.
Rehearse a bit and then go back to the start page, hit the German flag and repeat the procedure in German as soon as you have got used to tha structure of the page. - Shopping basket is "Warenkorb".
Enjoy... or drop me a private message (no swearwords please!).
I have ordered the CZJ 1927-1991 Volume for myself today, so if questions should apply to that part & period I might be able to answer them in a couple of weeks. Of course I will not violate any copyrights but only answer individual questions on an "according to" basis. I will come up with a message or thread then (in case nobody else should have done so already).
Jesko
____________________
2006 AD
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
I see the problem. The link is correct but due to some java or frame it only leads you to the start page again.
The written reference is:
THIELE, Hartmut: Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik
Vol. I - Carl Zeiss Jena 1890-1927, Munich 2005, €29.80.- (pre Zeiss Ikon)
Vol. II - Carl Zeiss Jena 1927-1991, Munich 2005, €49.80.- (Zeiss Ikon to VEB Carl Zeiss)
Vol. III - Carl Zeiss Oberkochen 1948-1996, Munich 2005, €29.80.- (the West German Zeiss)
Unfortunately these are private prints by the author and are not registered under an ISBN.
Therefore I assume that one can only order the books via the complicated link I have tried to embed in my post.
It's a bit difficult to explain how to find the book because the site is in German. I'll try anyway:
Left-click the Star Spangled Banner (for a while, you can use English then - until you come to the book description again, obviously the thing is under construction).
On the following page, enter "Thiele" in the fast search box in the upper left corner and click "Start search".
You will then find thumbnails of the books by Hartmut Thiele; the three books dealing with Carl Zeiss are in a yellowish ochre tone. Just click them to see details - in German.
A second problem: The ordering form is not working properly in the English version.
Rehearse a bit and then go back to the start page, hit the German flag and repeat the procedure in German as soon as you have got used to tha structure of the page. - Shopping basket is "Warenkorb".
Enjoy... or drop me a private message (no swearwords please!).
I have ordered the CZJ 1927-1991 Volume for myself today, so if questions should apply to that part & period I might be able to answer them in a couple of weeks. Of course I will not violate any copyrights but only answer individual questions on an "according to" basis. I will come up with a message or thread then (in case nobody else should have done so already).
Jesko
____________________
2006 AD
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
I would date a Zeiss Jena Biogon but my wife wouldn't like it.
drmatthes
Zeiss Addict
Yip, the gals can be jealous of that camera stuff, I can tell you. - And finally one of our crazy bunch has made the joke I have been waiting for!
drmatthes
Zeiss Addict
Hartmut Thiele's "Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II, Carl Zeiss Jena 1927-1991", Munich 2005, which I had ordered last week from www.lindemanns.de , has arrived today.
According to tab. 2, p. 162, cit. CZJ registry card #8008, my lens belongs to a lot of 1000 with serial numbers from 2672701 to 2673700, production start having been 1940-11-7.
Therefore it is a wartime lens, quite like Mike Kovacs and Huck Finn have already proposed.
Thank you all for taking part in this thread.
************************************************************************
Anybody interested in lens dates of the CZJ pre-war, wartime and post-war East German factory - feel free to drop me a message.
************************************************************************
Jesko
_____________
2006 AD
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
According to tab. 2, p. 162, cit. CZJ registry card #8008, my lens belongs to a lot of 1000 with serial numbers from 2672701 to 2673700, production start having been 1940-11-7.
Therefore it is a wartime lens, quite like Mike Kovacs and Huck Finn have already proposed.
Thank you all for taking part in this thread.
************************************************************************
Anybody interested in lens dates of the CZJ pre-war, wartime and post-war East German factory - feel free to drop me a message.
************************************************************************
Jesko
_____________
2006 AD
800 yrs Dresden
80 yrs Zeiss Ikon
Mike Kovacs
Contax Connaisseur
Ausgezeichnet! Viel Spass mit Ihres Objectiv.
darkkavenger
Massimiliano Mortillaro
Hello Jesko, maybe you can let me know when is this collapsible 50/2 sonnar from (I think 1936), I'm going to receive it soon at home
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7584161825&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1
Thanks immensely
Max
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7584161825&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1
Thanks immensely
Max