Blake Werts
Established
I've read that some lenses, like Jupiters, can be "dated" to a certain extent from their serial number. Is this true? Can Industar lenses be dated in this manner as well?
Thanks!
Blake
Thanks!
Blake
Dating Industar and Jupiter Lenses?
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xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
most can, the I -22 is less so but the I-61 l/d is more so, dated by the first two digits.
Nickfed
Well-known
My understanding is that, if there is a long number on it, the first two digits are the date. This applies to everything except FED branded stuff. My FED 3.5 collapsible has no numbers at all.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
I have J-8s and a lot of I-22s that do not always follow that rule.
wolves3012
Veteran
I think it's basically only true for 8-digit serial number Jupiters - and not even all of those!
Blake Werts
Established
... so how do people generally date the Industar lenses? "Guestimation"? ;-)
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
well, unless one can get access to factory records, if they still exist or ever existed, guestimation by experience is the way to go.
eg: my I -22 came on a Zorki 2c from 1956, the lens serial # is 8024xxx, a good guess is that the lens is from '56 also.
an other method is construction style and lens coating colour,
eg: silver non tabbed J-8s with rotating fronts and blueish lens coating are more likely to be from the early 1960s, lighter coating from mid 60s to early 70s.
Black J-8 with with white numbers engraved, early to mid 1970s, engraved colour numbers, mid 1970s.
Painted colour numbers late 1970s 80s and early 1990s.
Still an other dating method is the logo used.
EG:
collapsable I-22/ I -50 that do not have the KMZ logo are newer and were made in other soviet optical plants, same for the J-3 but these are mostly also year numbered thru the first two digits of their serial #.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
here is the site for FSU photo gear logos.
for lenses, you still have to know which years a particular lens was made by a Soviet firm and the logo symbol it used.
http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/logos/
for lenses, you still have to know which years a particular lens was made by a Soviet firm and the logo symbol it used.
http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/logos/
QUAsit
Established
As usual link above is missing old style ZOMZ logo used between 1957-1962.
The general rule of `two 1st digits` is ok for 70-80% of Soviet lenses (including SLRs) except FED gear. In other cases dating by design/style is needed.
The general rule of `two 1st digits` is ok for 70-80% of Soviet lenses (including SLRs) except FED gear. In other cases dating by design/style is needed.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
pauls52
Established
I have a database of collapsible Industar and postwar FED lenses compiled from eBay and various sources on the Net. Of course, lenses and cameras get interchanged so I am mainly trying to reach conclusions from trends rather than empircal data.
The various iterations of KMZ (including "Mockba" engraving) and KOMZ (Kazan) Industar 22s fitted up to and including Zorkis 1b (1949-51) did not have the serial number on the front but by 1950, the first two digits may have represented the year (previous lenses were probably consecutively numbered). This seems to have continued through 1cs and the 1954 1d until 1955. After this, the evidence suggests that the lenses fitted to later 1ds and 1es, Zorki Ss and 2Ss and the collapsible Industar 50s fitted to Zorki 5s were numbered with only the first digit representing the year of the 1950s it was made in eg an Industar 50 with number 80293xx was made in 1958.
KMZ seems to have made its last collapsible 50 in 1958 (perhaps the last "standard lens" or alternative standard lens example). LZOS at Lytkarino seems to have undertaken collapsible lens production from 1957 to at least 1970 (probably as an "accessory lens"). Their serial numbers appear to be consistent with the first two digits again representing the manufacturing year eg 660083xx was probably made in 1966.
Fed collapsible numbers are a bit more difficult. Not all early lenses were numbered (some only had batch numbers). It was not until the early 1g models in late 1954 that numbers started appearing on the front of the lens mount flange (previously on the reverse side) and in late 1954, the numbers were between 3000 and 10000 (in my database) suggesting that numbering was restarted, increasing consecutively from there. The highest number lens I have seen fitted to a 1 series FED (made in 1955) is 1071xx. The FED 2s were initially fitted with the collapsible lens as well. These lenses had a modified infinity lock required by a thinner flange caused by the redesign of the camera body to include a removable back. The first of these lenses in my database is 0901xx fitted to a 1952-1954 pre-series camera. The last is 3493xx fitted to a 2b body from 1958.
I have less info about later Industars but I agree with xayraa33 that 61s probably have the first two digits indicating year of manufacture (this was also true for FED 2 bodies from 1966 but not earlier).
Whilst none of the above is difinitive, hope it may help further inquiry.
Paul
The various iterations of KMZ (including "Mockba" engraving) and KOMZ (Kazan) Industar 22s fitted up to and including Zorkis 1b (1949-51) did not have the serial number on the front but by 1950, the first two digits may have represented the year (previous lenses were probably consecutively numbered). This seems to have continued through 1cs and the 1954 1d until 1955. After this, the evidence suggests that the lenses fitted to later 1ds and 1es, Zorki Ss and 2Ss and the collapsible Industar 50s fitted to Zorki 5s were numbered with only the first digit representing the year of the 1950s it was made in eg an Industar 50 with number 80293xx was made in 1958.
KMZ seems to have made its last collapsible 50 in 1958 (perhaps the last "standard lens" or alternative standard lens example). LZOS at Lytkarino seems to have undertaken collapsible lens production from 1957 to at least 1970 (probably as an "accessory lens"). Their serial numbers appear to be consistent with the first two digits again representing the manufacturing year eg 660083xx was probably made in 1966.
Fed collapsible numbers are a bit more difficult. Not all early lenses were numbered (some only had batch numbers). It was not until the early 1g models in late 1954 that numbers started appearing on the front of the lens mount flange (previously on the reverse side) and in late 1954, the numbers were between 3000 and 10000 (in my database) suggesting that numbering was restarted, increasing consecutively from there. The highest number lens I have seen fitted to a 1 series FED (made in 1955) is 1071xx. The FED 2s were initially fitted with the collapsible lens as well. These lenses had a modified infinity lock required by a thinner flange caused by the redesign of the camera body to include a removable back. The first of these lenses in my database is 0901xx fitted to a 1952-1954 pre-series camera. The last is 3493xx fitted to a 2b body from 1958.
I have less info about later Industars but I agree with xayraa33 that 61s probably have the first two digits indicating year of manufacture (this was also true for FED 2 bodies from 1966 but not earlier).
Whilst none of the above is difinitive, hope it may help further inquiry.
Paul
brachal
Refrigerated User
this is the logo you refer to?
That's the old ZOMZ logo. I have a 1961 J-3 with this logo.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
This lens was sold to me as "Industar 50", is that correct?
I hadn't really considered the logo before this reading this thread, but that logo is "KOMZ"?
And the serial/batch(?) number on it is 6033, located on the back side of the flange by the infinity lock:
So, a fairly early--before '51--lens?
Rob
I hadn't really considered the logo before this reading this thread, but that logo is "KOMZ"?
And the serial/batch(?) number on it is 6033, located on the back side of the flange by the infinity lock:
So, a fairly early--before '51--lens?
Rob
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
This lens was sold to me as "Industar 50", is that correct?
I hadn't really considered the logo before this reading this thread, but that logo is "KOMZ"?
And the serial/batch(?) number on it is 6033, located on the back side of the flange by the infinity lock:
So, a fairly early--before '51--lens?
Rob
Remember, the I-50 came out in the very late 1950s, as it was an improved I-22, so your lens could be made in 1960 going by that 6033 number, or no connection at all, as Komz made collapsable I-50s for a very long time after 1960.
The majority of the collapsable 50mm f3.5 type type lenses throughout most of the 1950s were I-22's made by KMZ
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
So, after re-reading your and Paul's comments above, now I wonder if this is an I-50 made with a left over I-22 mount? Or do some later lenses still have the number on the back of the flange ?
I need to get out my copy of Princelle's book and read the appropriate chapters again.
Rob
I need to get out my copy of Princelle's book and read the appropriate chapters again.
Rob
pauls52
Established
Rob,
Early I-50s are not my area of expertise and I have to admit that this looks to be the earliest I have seen. Assuming a correlation of characteristics between I-50s and I-22s of the same vintage, this is my interpretation:
The lens is an Industar 50 signified by the backward N (I in cryillic) in front of the 50. This is unusual as when the Industar name first appeared on the I-22s I have seen (as early as 1948), it was always spelled in full. Most I-22s were made by KMZ but a percentage of Zorkis seem to have been fitted with KOMZ (Kazan) made ones up to about 1951 (you are correct about the logo). The KOMZ made I-22s were very similar to the original KMZ complete with Industar-22 name in full and up to 1951, neither had the serial number engraved on the front. Personally, I have not seen examples of later KOMZ made I-22s but they may exist. Yours is the only example of a KOMZ I-50 I have seen but again, that does not mean they don't exist or are even rare, although it might be.
If that number was on the back of a FED or KMZ lens, I would think batch number because it is too low for the period but given the probable rarity of the KOMZ lens, it could well be a serial number.
There are only a few camera examples amongst various Zorki models fitted with collapsible Industar-50 lenses until the Zorki-5 (begining 1958) for which I think it was the standard collapsible lens. Therefore the earlier cameras probably have non-original lenses or these were offered as an upmarket alternative (unlikely - the difference in quality is reputed to be marginal).
As I mentioned earlier, LZOS at Lytkarino seemed to be the main maker of I-50s from 1957 to 1970 with KMZ production petering out in 1958.
My comments are based on observation only - someone out there may have better information. If I was asked to guess, I would say that your I-50 is a very early example and possibly reasonably rare. However, although it does not have a serial number in front (which as an I-22 would date it pre-1952) and it uses a seemingly unique naming convention, based on KMZ and LZOS examples, I suspect that I-50s did not really enter series production until about 1956 or 1957.
I just noted one more thing - both the early KMZ and KMOZ I-22s had the focal length as "50mm". The KMZ I-22 changeover to "5cm" (as in your lens) was in about 1955. Nothing definitive - just lots of clues, some suggesting pre-1951 and others pre-1957.
Paul
Early I-50s are not my area of expertise and I have to admit that this looks to be the earliest I have seen. Assuming a correlation of characteristics between I-50s and I-22s of the same vintage, this is my interpretation:
The lens is an Industar 50 signified by the backward N (I in cryillic) in front of the 50. This is unusual as when the Industar name first appeared on the I-22s I have seen (as early as 1948), it was always spelled in full. Most I-22s were made by KMZ but a percentage of Zorkis seem to have been fitted with KOMZ (Kazan) made ones up to about 1951 (you are correct about the logo). The KOMZ made I-22s were very similar to the original KMZ complete with Industar-22 name in full and up to 1951, neither had the serial number engraved on the front. Personally, I have not seen examples of later KOMZ made I-22s but they may exist. Yours is the only example of a KOMZ I-50 I have seen but again, that does not mean they don't exist or are even rare, although it might be.
If that number was on the back of a FED or KMZ lens, I would think batch number because it is too low for the period but given the probable rarity of the KOMZ lens, it could well be a serial number.
There are only a few camera examples amongst various Zorki models fitted with collapsible Industar-50 lenses until the Zorki-5 (begining 1958) for which I think it was the standard collapsible lens. Therefore the earlier cameras probably have non-original lenses or these were offered as an upmarket alternative (unlikely - the difference in quality is reputed to be marginal).
As I mentioned earlier, LZOS at Lytkarino seemed to be the main maker of I-50s from 1957 to 1970 with KMZ production petering out in 1958.
My comments are based on observation only - someone out there may have better information. If I was asked to guess, I would say that your I-50 is a very early example and possibly reasonably rare. However, although it does not have a serial number in front (which as an I-22 would date it pre-1952) and it uses a seemingly unique naming convention, based on KMZ and LZOS examples, I suspect that I-50s did not really enter series production until about 1956 or 1957.
I just noted one more thing - both the early KMZ and KMOZ I-22s had the focal length as "50mm". The KMZ I-22 changeover to "5cm" (as in your lens) was in about 1955. Nothing definitive - just lots of clues, some suggesting pre-1951 and others pre-1957.
Paul
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Princelle says about one very much like mine--page 248 example "Kz20":
I got this through ebay three-ish years ago and can't recall who the seller was. I can dig through my emails and see who I got it from. I bought it by itself not on a camera, and I never considered that it might be rare/special. It did come wrapped in paper and in a bakelite box--though the logo on the box was not KOMZ and the lens certainly was not NOS. It had been used but not mistreated so I was happy with it at first glance (and have been happy using it since).
Gee, maybe the "L@@K! R@RE!" title on the auction was not the usual BS!😉
People--including me--talk about "ebay roulette", I guess I won a bit playing that time.
It works well on my FSU cameras and on my Bessa so I hadn't given it much thought beyond its utility.
This makes this useful lens a little more interesting to me!
Rob
"Even more unusual" compared to the example of I-22 ("Kz10") on that page, I guess.
I got this through ebay three-ish years ago and can't recall who the seller was. I can dig through my emails and see who I got it from. I bought it by itself not on a camera, and I never considered that it might be rare/special. It did come wrapped in paper and in a bakelite box--though the logo on the box was not KOMZ and the lens certainly was not NOS. It had been used but not mistreated so I was happy with it at first glance (and have been happy using it since).
Gee, maybe the "L@@K! R@RE!" title on the auction was not the usual BS!😉
People--including me--talk about "ebay roulette", I guess I won a bit playing that time.
It works well on my FSU cameras and on my Bessa so I hadn't given it much thought beyond its utility.
This makes this useful lens a little more interesting to me!
Rob
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