dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
I've been doing some research into 90mm and/or 75mm lenses for the M8.
There's lots of information here and at the Leica-Forum but I would like to hear from folks who have experience shooting with these lenses in "event" or "wedding" situations.
As I don't have the ability here to rent any Leica M (or CV) lenses I'm interested in the focus throw on the 90mm and 75mm lenses - the shorter the throw the better I would think; thereby allowing an "easier" way to focus during an event and/or wedding.
Speed is of a concern - would love something that is fast but also sharp.
And while I usually don't care too much about $$$$ - I would prefer not to "bend over" backwards (or forwards
) for any 90mm or 75mm
Cheers,
Dave
There's lots of information here and at the Leica-Forum but I would like to hear from folks who have experience shooting with these lenses in "event" or "wedding" situations.
As I don't have the ability here to rent any Leica M (or CV) lenses I'm interested in the focus throw on the 90mm and 75mm lenses - the shorter the throw the better I would think; thereby allowing an "easier" way to focus during an event and/or wedding.
Speed is of a concern - would love something that is fast but also sharp.
And while I usually don't care too much about $$$$ - I would prefer not to "bend over" backwards (or forwards
) for any 90mm or 75mm Cheers,
Dave
pfoto
Well-known
I'm an amateur, but I happen to have attended two weddings recently and used both 90mm and 75mm lenses, but with film cameras, not the M8. My lenses were the Leica 90AA and 75AA, both with a max. aperture of f2. I've since sold the 90AA, a great lens but challenged with close-ups - not it's strong point IMHO.
I would recommend the 75, in particular because it has a very short focus throw, and it is stellar with close-ups, presumably because of the floating element. Closest focusing distance on this lens is 0.7M. On a film camera, the lens gives a very natural perspective and provides an image that looks almost like a 50mm, although I'm not sure what sort of perspective you would get with an M8. I would think a 90mm on an M8 might provide a less practical effective focal length than a 75 but since I only shoot film I have no experience in the matter. I do think the 75 is a wonderful tool for weddings, particularly when you are one of the myriad people snapping away and not the "official" photographer. Below are a couple of examples from my 75.
I would recommend the 75, in particular because it has a very short focus throw, and it is stellar with close-ups, presumably because of the floating element. Closest focusing distance on this lens is 0.7M. On a film camera, the lens gives a very natural perspective and provides an image that looks almost like a 50mm, although I'm not sure what sort of perspective you would get with an M8. I would think a 90mm on an M8 might provide a less practical effective focal length than a 75 but since I only shoot film I have no experience in the matter. I do think the 75 is a wonderful tool for weddings, particularly when you are one of the myriad people snapping away and not the "official" photographer. Below are a couple of examples from my 75.
Attachments
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Thanks for that - yes, I've heard that the 75mm is more a "natural" portrait lens (especially on the M8 where it will approximate the field of view as a 100mm lens) - but i've also heard that on the M8 that the 75mm framelines are "more difficult" to see versus the 90mm lines.
hmmm... decisions..
Dave
hmmm... decisions..
Dave
DwF
Well-known
90 pre-asph Summicrn
90 pre-asph Summicrn
The late version of the 90mm Summicron pre-aspheric is a really nice lens. I would suggest trying this one out especially considering that these sell for less than half what you pay for the 90 Asph. Unlike the earlier version of the 90 f2, it balances very nicely on the M producing great results wide open. Some would say softer at f2 than the Apsh. That may be true but you could also see resulting images as easier on the eyes and not soft by any stretch.
The 50mm Summicron works beautifully for portraits and is a lens you'll more likely carry than a 75. I have always found this combination more practical saving the 90 for the longer length.
David
90 pre-asph Summicrn
The late version of the 90mm Summicron pre-aspheric is a really nice lens. I would suggest trying this one out especially considering that these sell for less than half what you pay for the 90 Asph. Unlike the earlier version of the 90 f2, it balances very nicely on the M producing great results wide open. Some would say softer at f2 than the Apsh. That may be true but you could also see resulting images as easier on the eyes and not soft by any stretch.
The 50mm Summicron works beautifully for portraits and is a lens you'll more likely carry than a 75. I have always found this combination more practical saving the 90 for the longer length.
David
Ben Z
Veteran
I've used 90's and 75 (C/V) on my M8. The 75 is equivalent to a 100mm, the 90 to a 120mm. In practical use I haven't found much of a difference to recommend one focal length over the other, so if you already have a 90, then honestly I couldn't encourage you to spend money on the 75. If you don't have either, then one thing to consider is there are a lot more choices out there in 90's. Depending on your taste in terms of digital noise, you might also want to consider that a 90 f/2, which would let you use one notch lower ISO than an f/2.5-2.8 lens, can be had for $400-800 whereas a 75 f/2 is going to set you back big bucks. I got my C/V for $199 used, so I'm keeping it, but I'm not selling my 90 Cron either...in fact that's the one I take to indoor events/parties/weddings.
For the focusing throw, if you think about it, in an indoor event you're most likely going to be focusing within a fairly narrow range, not racking the lens out to infinity and back again. So the overall difference in focusing throw isn't going to be as severe as you might think. The 75 Summilux, however, not only has a long throw but also most of them I've handled (and two I owned at various times) needed quite a bit of muscle. That really made focusing them quickly, a major problem.
As to the 75 framelines, I've read all the horror stories about them, but they haven't been a problem for me. In fact, to me it's the easiest frame to work with. At the closest range, the framelines (corners, actually) are pretty good. At infinity, the 50 frames are almost perfect. And since they are visible together, it's very easy to extrapolate/interpolate when focused in-between. A little trial and error and you'll have it down pat.
For the focusing throw, if you think about it, in an indoor event you're most likely going to be focusing within a fairly narrow range, not racking the lens out to infinity and back again. So the overall difference in focusing throw isn't going to be as severe as you might think. The 75 Summilux, however, not only has a long throw but also most of them I've handled (and two I owned at various times) needed quite a bit of muscle. That really made focusing them quickly, a major problem.
As to the 75 framelines, I've read all the horror stories about them, but they haven't been a problem for me. In fact, to me it's the easiest frame to work with. At the closest range, the framelines (corners, actually) are pretty good. At infinity, the 50 frames are almost perfect. And since they are visible together, it's very easy to extrapolate/interpolate when focused in-between. A little trial and error and you'll have it down pat.
Richard Marks
Rexel
Dave
The 90 2.8 Elmarit is a great lens and very reasonably priced. It is also small and light. The issues for me were that the viewfinder patch was tiny and also f2.8 eats into your hand holding in low light reserve. I have used it for portraits but usually had more keepers from my 50mm f2. Enter my 75 lux, awesome portait machine. The framelines are out slightly but not a big problem. The out of focus areas with this lens make for superb available light protraits. if you rack it up to 5.6 it is increadibly sharp and it is enough to offset minor errors in focusing. Its heavy though and not as short a focus through as the newer Summicron ASPH. Even so the f1.4 stop is worth having as it gives a slightly softer image without any real effort / filters etc.
Bellow are shots 1/60 f1.4 no sharpening
The 90 2.8 Elmarit is a great lens and very reasonably priced. It is also small and light. The issues for me were that the viewfinder patch was tiny and also f2.8 eats into your hand holding in low light reserve. I have used it for portraits but usually had more keepers from my 50mm f2. Enter my 75 lux, awesome portait machine. The framelines are out slightly but not a big problem. The out of focus areas with this lens make for superb available light protraits. if you rack it up to 5.6 it is increadibly sharp and it is enough to offset minor errors in focusing. Its heavy though and not as short a focus through as the newer Summicron ASPH. Even so the f1.4 stop is worth having as it gives a slightly softer image without any real effort / filters etc.
Bellow are shots 1/60 f1.4 no sharpening
DwF
Well-known
Beautiful light and capture of a sweet subject on that second one Richard!
Here (link below) is a pretty straight forward shot with the 90f2. Slow and hand-held though
http://www.pbase.com/image/96603559
David
Here (link below) is a pretty straight forward shot with the 90f2. Slow and hand-held though
http://www.pbase.com/image/96603559
David
Ben Z
Veteran
Richard, how is the finder blockage with the 75 f/1.4 in the M8? When I had mine, even with the hood pushed all the way in, it completely blocked the lower right 1/3 of the finder in my M6, worse when it was focused close. Made me want to throw it at a wall (but fortunately I refrained, and just quietly sold it )
)Richard Marks
Rexel
Many thanks!Beautiful light and capture of a sweet subject on that second one Richard!
Here (link below) is a pretty straight forward shot with the 90f2. Slow and hand-held though
http://www.pbase.com/image/96603559
David
Also a lovelly pick with the 90 David.
I just think when you are up against to get the shot (weddings) the 75 is going to deliver a little more reliably than the 90. There again the 50 on an M8 can get the job done as it focuses close enough for a tight head shot and still allows you to do some full length shots without changing lenses over. lens changes is a bit of an issue for weddings with the M8 unless you are very organised.
Richard
Richard
Richard Marks
Rexel
Ben the 75 does take off the bottom right hand corner of the frame line.Richard, how is the finder blockage with the 75 f/1.4 in the M8? When I had mine, even with the hood pushed all the way in, it completely blocked the lower right 1/3 of the finder in my M6, worse when it was focused close. Made me want to throw it at a wall (but fortunately I refrained, and just quietly sold it
Its more of a problem for vertical shots as this is then the top right for me. But I just love the flexibility of f1.4 at this focal length. Its sharp but subtle.
Richard
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Thanks Ben, David and Richard.
I don't know if my bank account (or line of credit) can take the 75 Lux but that said, the difference is negligible if I was going to buy a brand new 75mm AA cron.
The 90mm elmarit-m (now discontinued I understand?) was what I was considering but after reading a number of threads here and there I got interested in the 75mm summarit because of the "value".
I think, especially at the "longer" focal lengths like 75mm and 90mm, I would want the extra speed that f2 (or f1.4 in the case of the 75 Lux) offers. It would be more accommodating for the receptions in lower light.
Thanks again,
dave
I don't know if my bank account (or line of credit) can take the 75 Lux but that said, the difference is negligible if I was going to buy a brand new 75mm AA cron.
The 90mm elmarit-m (now discontinued I understand?) was what I was considering but after reading a number of threads here and there I got interested in the 75mm summarit because of the "value".
I think, especially at the "longer" focal lengths like 75mm and 90mm, I would want the extra speed that f2 (or f1.4 in the case of the 75 Lux) offers. It would be more accommodating for the receptions in lower light.
Thanks again,
dave
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dave,
I used the 90 Summicron pre-aspheric until I tried the 75 ASPH Summicron. Now the 90 sees very little use. For a wedding (I've not shot many, but I've shot a lot at the ones I have shot), the 75 is the easy winner. Not just the quality: the focal length. For the M8, NO contest.
The Summarit 75 is superb, and the 2/3 stop difference is unlikely to matter much in most shots: on a recent trip to Eastern Europe I took the Summarit not the Summicron. Even so, I'm returning the Summarit next week because the Summicron is faster; focuses closer; and I own it (the Summarit was a loaner).
Focus throw on all modern Leica lenses is short: too short for me (I'd prefer 140 degrees) so I doubt you'll find any of them a problem.
Cheers,
R.
I used the 90 Summicron pre-aspheric until I tried the 75 ASPH Summicron. Now the 90 sees very little use. For a wedding (I've not shot many, but I've shot a lot at the ones I have shot), the 75 is the easy winner. Not just the quality: the focal length. For the M8, NO contest.
The Summarit 75 is superb, and the 2/3 stop difference is unlikely to matter much in most shots: on a recent trip to Eastern Europe I took the Summarit not the Summicron. Even so, I'm returning the Summarit next week because the Summicron is faster; focuses closer; and I own it (the Summarit was a loaner).
Focus throw on all modern Leica lenses is short: too short for me (I'd prefer 140 degrees) so I doubt you'll find any of them a problem.
Cheers,
R.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Hi Roger,
Thank you very much for your insight on this
I know that you've mentioned that Frances' review stated that she loved the Summarit as well but because she had the Lux it was almost a foregone conclusion that the Summarit was going back.
I am tempted by the Lux - and, knowing that I can, if needed, resell it at little loss - but I wonder if this will be "too much" for putting it into play at weddings.
Cheers,
Dave
Thank you very much for your insight on this
I know that you've mentioned that Frances' review stated that she loved the Summarit as well but because she had the Lux it was almost a foregone conclusion that the Summarit was going back.
I am tempted by the Lux - and, knowing that I can, if needed, resell it at little loss - but I wonder if this will be "too much" for putting it into play at weddings.
Cheers,
Dave
Richard Marks
Rexel
David
I agree with Roger a 75mm focal length is going to be a lot easier. I just think I would be quite happy for 95% plus Wedding shots with a 28 for groups and a 50 for close ups. Its just that the 5% of shots with a 75 might potentially be real killers. Interstingly a friend recently borrowed my M8 for a wedding and he had never used one before and did suprisingly well just with the 28 2.8! Its increadibly easy to use and huge depth of field, can hand hold at just about any shutter speed. So maybe 28 and 50 or 28 and 75? Realistically if you are changing more lenses than this its going to get messy in the heat of battle.
If we say 75mm, and sideline the lux and new 'cron ASPH on price, then pre ASPH Summicron vs new Sumarit is an interesting one. The latter is coded I suppose, which might give slightly better TTL flash (if you use that daft setting) but thats not a deal breaker. The former is going to be cheaper. Equally if we are talking money no object new ASPH cron vs Lux is also not so easy. The former is undoubtedly easier to use, but probably a less subtle choice (just my opinion).
Regards
Richard
I agree with Roger a 75mm focal length is going to be a lot easier. I just think I would be quite happy for 95% plus Wedding shots with a 28 for groups and a 50 for close ups. Its just that the 5% of shots with a 75 might potentially be real killers. Interstingly a friend recently borrowed my M8 for a wedding and he had never used one before and did suprisingly well just with the 28 2.8! Its increadibly easy to use and huge depth of field, can hand hold at just about any shutter speed. So maybe 28 and 50 or 28 and 75? Realistically if you are changing more lenses than this its going to get messy in the heat of battle.
If we say 75mm, and sideline the lux and new 'cron ASPH on price, then pre ASPH Summicron vs new Sumarit is an interesting one. The latter is coded I suppose, which might give slightly better TTL flash (if you use that daft setting) but thats not a deal breaker. The former is going to be cheaper. Equally if we are talking money no object new ASPH cron vs Lux is also not so easy. The former is undoubtedly easier to use, but probably a less subtle choice (just my opinion).
Regards
Richard
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dave,
I've never owned a 75 Summilux, nor even used one for a sustained period, but a friend did let me try his. Personally, I wouldn't bother. The quality is alleged to be inferior, but I doubt that would matter very much to either you or me in the real world. The main concerns -- and I could tell this on very limited acquaintance -- are the almost-zero depth of field and the MUCH bigger size and weight, neither of which I would welcome for a wedding.
Cheers,
Roger
I've never owned a 75 Summilux, nor even used one for a sustained period, but a friend did let me try his. Personally, I wouldn't bother. The quality is alleged to be inferior, but I doubt that would matter very much to either you or me in the real world. The main concerns -- and I could tell this on very limited acquaintance -- are the almost-zero depth of field and the MUCH bigger size and weight, neither of which I would welcome for a wedding.
Cheers,
Roger
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
generally the 75mm is a better all-around lens. Either the Summarit or VC would do fine because not only are they good but they are also light to carry for the 5 or 6 hours of the wedding event.
I shot a few dozen weddings with the Hasselblad in the old days, once I switched to 35mm I felt like I had been re-born and the 5-6 hour stretch was no longer the same grind. For these reasons I am not into the 75mm/1.4 or the 90mmAA Cron.
I prefer focusing on the event itself and not changing out lenses during the heat of the battle. HCB said to learn your lens and use it to its fullest. YMMV.
I shot a few dozen weddings with the Hasselblad in the old days, once I switched to 35mm I felt like I had been re-born and the 5-6 hour stretch was no longer the same grind. For these reasons I am not into the 75mm/1.4 or the 90mmAA Cron.
I prefer focusing on the event itself and not changing out lenses during the heat of the battle. HCB said to learn your lens and use it to its fullest. YMMV.
Richard Marks
Rexel
Dearest Roger
This lens is very flexible. I dare say it takes some time to get into it. Who says its "inferior" with the exception of your eminent self?
Zero depth of field at 1.4, but by f4 / 5.6 Ill bet you could not tell it from your 75 ;cron. Size and weight agreed. But people shot weddings with MF for years and never complained. Its not that heavy
Richard
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
I own a summilux and wouldn't trade it for any of the other 75's on the market.
That being said, if I remember correctly the summarit had a really short focusing throw while the lux is much longer and slower.
That being said, if I remember correctly the summarit had a really short focusing throw while the lux is much longer and slower.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Thanks again gentlemen.
Regarding the throw on the 75 Lux; I would assume (and I know it's a bad thing to "assume") that this may be the case on all/most large aperture lenses. The Canon 85 f1.2 L is notoriously slow for autofocus due to the size/weight of the elements. The Canon 50 f1.2 L isn't as bad but still a bit slower than their f1.8 sample.
But I've always believed the reason why you buy lenses that fast (regardless if it's Canon or the CV 35 f1.2, Leica Noctilux or the 75mm Summilux) is because you intend on using the largest aperture setting on said lens.
As I've said before, when various lens decisions come about, if you need that particular aperture setting (or want that particular aperture) then there is no other choice.
Cheers,
Dave
Regarding the throw on the 75 Lux; I would assume (and I know it's a bad thing to "assume") that this may be the case on all/most large aperture lenses. The Canon 85 f1.2 L is notoriously slow for autofocus due to the size/weight of the elements. The Canon 50 f1.2 L isn't as bad but still a bit slower than their f1.8 sample.
But I've always believed the reason why you buy lenses that fast (regardless if it's Canon or the CV 35 f1.2, Leica Noctilux or the 75mm Summilux) is because you intend on using the largest aperture setting on said lens.
As I've said before, when various lens decisions come about, if you need that particular aperture setting (or want that particular aperture) then there is no other choice.
Cheers,
Dave
georgecp
Newbie
75mm works extremely well with the M8
75mm works extremely well with the M8
Hello Dave,
I have a 75mm 2.0 ASPH and love it. I second Roger's comments. It is beautifully balanced, well sized for the M8, and the perspective is terrific.
Like a previous poster, I have not had any issues with the 75mm framelines - I find them very easy to use.
While the 75mm 2.0 is superb optically, it does carry a high price tag; reviews of the summarit and CV have described equally great optical quality though I have no direct experience with them.
I have a 90mm pre-ASPH that I use on my M7; it is also a great lens. However, the perspective does not work as well for me on the M8.
I am enclosing a couple of portraits I took with the M8/75mm. The perspective and intimacy you have with the subjects is really a pleasure to work with. As expected, the prints of both these gentlemen are as sharp as you could ever want and exhibit great tonality.
Best Regards,
George
75mm works extremely well with the M8
Hello Dave,
I have a 75mm 2.0 ASPH and love it. I second Roger's comments. It is beautifully balanced, well sized for the M8, and the perspective is terrific.
Like a previous poster, I have not had any issues with the 75mm framelines - I find them very easy to use.
While the 75mm 2.0 is superb optically, it does carry a high price tag; reviews of the summarit and CV have described equally great optical quality though I have no direct experience with them.
I have a 90mm pre-ASPH that I use on my M7; it is also a great lens. However, the perspective does not work as well for me on the M8.
I am enclosing a couple of portraits I took with the M8/75mm. The perspective and intimacy you have with the subjects is really a pleasure to work with. As expected, the prints of both these gentlemen are as sharp as you could ever want and exhibit great tonality.
Best Regards,
George
