M. Valdemar
Well-known
Reading the classified ads here, and the eBay forums, I realize that this is a contentious issue for many people, mostly Americans.
Why are people so insanely adamant about not declaring an item as a "gift" or putting a low value on it to save their buyer customs fees, especially on a used item?
Before everyone starts chest-thumping and quoting obscure postal regulations to prove they are an obedient servant of Big Brother, NO INDIVIDUAL has EVER gotten in any kind of trouble by marking some package a low value. "Falsifying Federal Documents" sounds very impressive, but it is a minor non-issue for the sender.
You don't cheat your OWN government out of a penny by doing this, they could care less. Do you want to assist foreign governments to collect duty?
Do you feel some moral/religious compulsion for doing so?
There is no "fixed" value on a used item.
My philosophy is that once someone buys something, it now belongs to the buyer, and it is up to the buyer to decide what the value is.
The item may have sold for $1 one day and $800 another day.
This issue ALWAYS creates crazy debates akin to religious debates when it is discussed on eBay forums.
I feel that Americans are the people most programmed and fearful of their Government, far more than in the days when Americans were freedom loving, authority-hating individualists. Now they seem to be self-righteous, lock-stepping martinets.
Will YOU help a buyer and fellow RFF member save a lot of money and mark a low value on the customs form, if he buyer wishes it?
Why? Are you afraid or is it a meta-issue of morality for you?
Why are people so insanely adamant about not declaring an item as a "gift" or putting a low value on it to save their buyer customs fees, especially on a used item?
Before everyone starts chest-thumping and quoting obscure postal regulations to prove they are an obedient servant of Big Brother, NO INDIVIDUAL has EVER gotten in any kind of trouble by marking some package a low value. "Falsifying Federal Documents" sounds very impressive, but it is a minor non-issue for the sender.
You don't cheat your OWN government out of a penny by doing this, they could care less. Do you want to assist foreign governments to collect duty?
Do you feel some moral/religious compulsion for doing so?
There is no "fixed" value on a used item.
My philosophy is that once someone buys something, it now belongs to the buyer, and it is up to the buyer to decide what the value is.
The item may have sold for $1 one day and $800 another day.
This issue ALWAYS creates crazy debates akin to religious debates when it is discussed on eBay forums.
I feel that Americans are the people most programmed and fearful of their Government, far more than in the days when Americans were freedom loving, authority-hating individualists. Now they seem to be self-righteous, lock-stepping martinets.
Will YOU help a buyer and fellow RFF member save a lot of money and mark a low value on the customs form, if he buyer wishes it?
Why? Are you afraid or is it a meta-issue of morality for you?
dexdog
Veteran
I posit that "honest" is a more appropriate term that your "martinets" slur. I personally do not care if you want to evade taxes that your government imposes, but don't try to put the blame for taxes that your country imposes on residents of the USA.
It was really difficult avoiding using a bunch of creative expletives in this response.
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back alley
IMAGES
i have no problem with stating a lower value or gift.
but then i am fairly amoral...
but then i am fairly amoral...
M. Valdemar
Well-known
You don't evade any taxes. The United States does not collect ANY taxes or customs duty on packages you ship out of the country.
They could care less. Declaring a high value on packages simply helps the foreign government to which you ship levy high fees on the buyer.
As I said, value, especially on an old, used camera, is purely subjective. If you paid $1000 for a brownie box camera, does that make it "worth" $1000?
"Honest" means it's worth $5, as in McKeown's for example.
PS: I live in NYC. I'm a PATRIOTIC American, but not a sheep who believes everything I'm told to do.
.
They could care less. Declaring a high value on packages simply helps the foreign government to which you ship levy high fees on the buyer.
As I said, value, especially on an old, used camera, is purely subjective. If you paid $1000 for a brownie box camera, does that make it "worth" $1000?
"Honest" means it's worth $5, as in McKeown's for example.
PS: I live in NYC. I'm a PATRIOTIC American, but not a sheep who believes everything I'm told to do.
.
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dexdog
Veteran
i have no problem with stating a lower value or gift.
but then i am fairly amoral...
Yeah, and my initial response was two words, seven letters.
M. Valdemar
Well-known
Why does helping someone in a foreign country save some money anger you so much?
Why is this such a moral issue with you? Moral is relative. I see morality as helping your buyer. Maybe even keep some American dollars out of the hands of some hostile government.
Like I said, this subject drives some people wild. It's a contentious issue.
Remember something called the "Boston Tea Party"?
Why is this such a moral issue with you? Moral is relative. I see morality as helping your buyer. Maybe even keep some American dollars out of the hands of some hostile government.
Like I said, this subject drives some people wild. It's a contentious issue.
Remember something called the "Boston Tea Party"?
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
I was taught that morality was absolute. So if I think you are evil enough I guess I can track you down and kill you and that would be moral? No? I didn't think so.
"thou shalt not steal"..."though shalt not kill"... Good ideas. Ignore them if you wish. I choose not to.
Now let's look at a scenario. I sell a $1500 item to someone in a country with a VAT, and I place a nominal gift value on the item. The item is lost or stolen in transit. Had the item been insured for the full value, nobody is out any money. If I lie to save them money, should they let me keep the payment for the item they didn't receive?
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M. Valdemar
Well-known
So this confirms that my idea that putting a low value on a package is a "moral absolute", and and therefore is a religious concept for you and some other people.
Have you ever driven 60 mph when the speed limit was 55 mph? Is this also not permissible according to the theory of "moral absolutes"? How does one reconcile this sort of behavior?
How about enabling the giving of money to foreign governments who may be hostile to the United States? Where does the morality fit in there?
Have you ever driven 60 mph when the speed limit was 55 mph? Is this also not permissible according to the theory of "moral absolutes"? How does one reconcile this sort of behavior?
How about enabling the giving of money to foreign governments who may be hostile to the United States? Where does the morality fit in there?
bmattock
Veteran
I just don't like foreigners.
dadsm3
Well-known
No kidding. I hate 'holier than though's. Who wants to pay more?
Ororaro
Well-known
I don't get it either. Or those "Strictly US sale only" people. They really piss me off.
US citizens all anal about being honest while living in the most corrupt country is something I cannot underestand for the life of me. Something is definitely wrong. I know people will hate me for saying this... But so what. It is nothing personal but just general observation about a general situation.
US citizens all anal about being honest while living in the most corrupt country is something I cannot underestand for the life of me. Something is definitely wrong. I know people will hate me for saying this... But so what. It is nothing personal but just general observation about a general situation.
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bmattock
Veteran
Canadians should be made to pay more. They're so polite and all, but in my heart, I know they're up there plotting against us. They envy us here in the US, they probably caused global warming to make Canada more like Texas, and I know they just want to skate down here and steal all our cheese.
dadsm3
Well-known
I really want to pay totally unnecessary arbitrary rip-off taxes, but I can't because my mom is Sicilian.
My DNA won't allow it.
My DNA won't allow it.
bmattock
Veteran
That's why we do it.
pphuang
brain drain...
As a practical matter, you can only insure the item for its declared value, so if something happens in transit, the lower declared value could prove costly. And if the item is lost or damaged, you may need to produce proof of its declared value, which could result in some explaining if there is a big discrepancy. That being said, I usually leave it up to the buyer to decide whether the risk is worth the cost savings...
M. Valdemar
Well-known
I was taught that morality was absolute. So if I think you are evil enough I guess I can track you down and kill you and that would be moral? No? I didn't think so.
"thou shalt not steal"..."though shalt not kill"... Good ideas. Ignore them if you wish. I choose not to.
Your Government routinely tracks down and kills persons it feels are "evil". It probably killed a few dozen today on your behalf. So if this is done in your name by proxy by a larger group, it is acceptable?
Now let's look at a scenario. I sell a $1500 item to someone in a country with a VAT, and I place a nominal gift value on the item. The item is lost or stolen in transit. Had the item been insured for the full value, nobody is out any money. If I lie to save them money, should they let me keep the payment for the item they didn't receive?
You can insure the package with an independent company such as DSI for any amount. They don't care what you write on the customs form. There are many such companies. The USPS doesn't even care what you put on the customs form. Postal clerks in NYC INSTRUCT YOU to mark a low value to help your buyer. (many do).
If the package is lost, you give the buyer back what he paid you. It's a non-issue, the deal is between you and the buyer, not governments. VAT has nothing to do with it.
"thou shalt not steal"..."though shalt not kill"... Good ideas. Ignore them if you wish. I choose not to.
Your Government routinely tracks down and kills persons it feels are "evil". It probably killed a few dozen today on your behalf. So if this is done in your name by proxy by a larger group, it is acceptable?
Now let's look at a scenario. I sell a $1500 item to someone in a country with a VAT, and I place a nominal gift value on the item. The item is lost or stolen in transit. Had the item been insured for the full value, nobody is out any money. If I lie to save them money, should they let me keep the payment for the item they didn't receive?
You can insure the package with an independent company such as DSI for any amount. They don't care what you write on the customs form. There are many such companies. The USPS doesn't even care what you put on the customs form. Postal clerks in NYC INSTRUCT YOU to mark a low value to help your buyer. (many do).
If the package is lost, you give the buyer back what he paid you. It's a non-issue, the deal is between you and the buyer, not governments. VAT has nothing to do with it.
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It is the buyer's risk. I'll mark it at what the buyer wants but take no responsibility if there is a lost package. One can't insure for $1000 and declare value at $100. That's a guarantee of customs exception.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
I drive the average speed of all the traffic on the road because driving 55 when everyone else is going 70 makes me the safety hazzard.
I'd rather not send my money to any foreign government, but I have no choice but to pay my taxes and buy gasoline.
These issues are contentious because some of the people here have no respect for opinions that are to the right of NPR. But you knew that when you started this thread. Do I have to to be an amoral socialist to post here? Probably...
M. Valdemar
Well-known
http://www.dsiinsurance.com/
They insure parcels. Nothing is keyed to the customs form, and nothing is written on the package.
You can insure for $10,000, and declare the value on the customs form for a penny.
OK, now that problem is a non-issue.
Next?
They insure parcels. Nothing is keyed to the customs form, and nothing is written on the package.
You can insure for $10,000, and declare the value on the customs form for a penny.
OK, now that problem is a non-issue.
Next?
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colyn
ישו משיח
Because it's the law....
Have you investigated the American court system and know whether or not this statement is in fact true??? Or are you just saying this???
Sounds like you are saying it's OK for me or any other American to give false information on Government documents whether it be a customs form or any other form.
Maybe I should have given false information on my IRS 1040 so I could have cheated the Government in order to get more from my tax refund.
Why not??
If I buy from a seller in a foreign country I pay duties...
It's called being a law abiding citizen....
No truth whatsoever!!!!!!
Sounds like you are just another American hating individual....and a dishonest person...
No........
Again......It's called being a law abiding citizen....
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