Developer for higher grain

Apart from all films evolving every few years to achieve smaller grain, most developers have a solvent effect and dissolve grain edges trying to make the texture more uniform.

If I were you I would order a bottle of Rodinal right now: you can develop near 100 rolls with a bottle, and it lasts for years if you shoot less than that...

Grain is a lot crisper from wet prints than from scans even after digital sharpening, but if you want it visible in normal size prints, go for wet printed Neopan1600, TMax3200 or Delta3200... The first one in Rodinal, the second one in TMax and the third one in DDX, but for wonderful big sharp grain, great tonality and classic look, try Neopan1600 in Rodinal.

Cheers,

Juan
 
Merelyok & raytoei - Why don't we do a bulk order of Rodinal from Freestyle? I am sure a lot of the guys over at CS will be interested!

Is there any restrictions with Singaporean customs?
 
Merelyok and meven:

Freestyle doesn't ship coz US customs doesn't allow evil Rodinal to be shpped by air.

There are two sources to get Rodinal. Can share shipping, I estimate around $100 SGD for 02 x 500ml bottles. I will ask for 02 bottles and 04 bottles prices + shipping. Please PM me if you interested to explore further.

Of course, we could wear funny hats like Druids, recite incantations and crush panadols and mix it to make home-made Rodinal called Parodinal...see here.

I brought in Rodinal previously, no issues with customs.
 
SGD100 for 2 bottles sounds incredibly overpriced IMO!! I definitely prefer the funny hats option!;)

I am going to KL next week, can I find any there or maybe I should ask a friend of mine to buy some for me in HK (if it is available there).
 
raytoei@gmail.com said:
Okay. I checked with my email, the source is here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/500-ml-AGFA-Rod...Item&pt=Fotolabor_Zubehör&hash=item4839fa47c4

From Germany: 2 bottles of 500ml Rodinal + shipping to Singapore about 100 SGD.

From Japan Exposure, 2 bottles of 500ml Rodinal + shipping = 6880 yen or about 101 sgd.

I have had good experience with JE so I would stick with them.
thanks
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Thanks for the details Ray! I thought it was SGD100 for the shipping only, I misread your post... I just ordered some Rodinal and Rodinal Special from Germany.
 
raytoei@gmail.com said:
Okay. I checked with my email, the source is here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/500-ml-AGFA-Rod...Item&pt=Fotolabor_Zubehör&hash=item4839fa47c4

From Germany: 2 bottles of 500ml Rodinal + shipping to Singapore about 100 SGD.

From Japan Exposure, 2 bottles of 500ml Rodinal + shipping = 6880 yen or about 101 sgd.

I have had good experience with JE so I would stick with them.
thanks
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I have used apfel when in SG. The stuff takes a long time to come, but does get there. works out to approximately 33/500ml bottle. 5 bottles can be shipped for same price (shipping).

Merelyok: agitate more. I think you need more grain size. Perceptol gives very smooth/small grains. HC110/rodinal are all faster acting developers. For best results try it with Tmax and TriX, as both have different grain structure. T-grain Vs older grain/crystal structure.
 
I believe the shipping problem has to do with the caustic nature of Rodinal concentrate and the quantities, smaller bottles might be shipped == check. Also, I have seen R-09 made by Foma on some web sites, which is pretty close to a generic Rodinal.

Way back, we souped 4x5 Royal Pan in Dektol 1:1 in about one minute, and we also used DK60a, -- old school for sure. D-11 is another grain producer as is D-19. Lots of formulae are published.

An investment in a good balance will allow you to mix almost anything, and you can tweak formulae if you gain some expertise.

I also added some NaOH, (lye) to paper developer, which I think affected the restrainers, and also of course the increased pH greatly increased the activity, giving some amazing grain in prints which were from a rather contrasty negative, also reducing the contrast.

For sure, be careful with lye, it is called caustic soda for a reason, think of it as dangerous as a concentrated acid, use goggles, and get it off of you quickly if you get some on you, but you should be OK. It is the active ingredient in Draino-- but you should be able to get Lewis Lye cheap at a hardware or perhaps even a grocery -- people used to buy it for making soap, or cleaning drains.



I have several friends who know tons more than I do about the chemistry of developers, years spent studying them, one of them had classes that showed how to make fine adjustments on the way to a PhD in Fine Arts Photography.

I would avoid all Pyro developers, unless you are very careful with contact. Not only does it stain skin, but it is absorbed through the skin, and you do not want that.

Try a little lye in your print developer and see what it does for you, good place to start, only add a little.

Regards, John
 
I found JE to be fast, Friday order, Monday delivery if I chose the ems option, which explained why that singel 500ml order took 80SGD. The more normal ones take about 1-2 weeks to arrive.
 
JohnTF said:
I would avoid all Pyro developers, unless you are very careful with contact. Not only does it stain skin, but it is absorbed through the skin, and you do not want that.
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So is hydroquinone, which is just as toxic and in many developers. Avoid skin contact, breathing dust or fumes with any chemicals. There is no need to be hysterical about pyro, or no more than any other chemical - they are all hazardous.

Marty
 
Freakscene said:
So is hydroquinone, which is just as toxic and in many developers. Avoid skin contact, breathing dust or fumes with any chemicals. There is no need to be hysterical about pyro, or no more than any other chemical - they are all hazardous.

Marty
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My goal was to temper my "hysteria", perhaps I failed. ;-)

The days of exposing myself to these has long passed.

Between the farm chemicals, carbon tet, and second hand cigarette smoke, plus playing with mercury in the dentist's office-- it was more of a generic disclaimer, hopefully not hysterical, too late for me for that. ;-)

I seriously stained my hands, feet and knees (don't ask) several times with pyro. Unless you mix your own, am not sure if there are any pyro developers commonly available.

I think Dektol had the warning, Caution , contains Mono Methyl Para Amino Phenyl Sulfate.

My uncle lost the skin on both feet when his grandson poured Draino in to his boots, and he just dumped it in to the trash before putting them on.

Some folks reused the grates from old fridges on the grill, they used to be plated with cadmium.

Gotta go get my blood tested.

Regards, John
 
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D76 1:3 will make a grainy but sharp negative. Use 4 oz stock + 12 water. This means a two reel tank for one roll plus an empty reel.

Try around 16 min for tri X at 400.

Do not control highlights with reduced agitation. Control it with time in developer.

More dense blacks are made from generous exposure in the print or scanner. If you can`t expose more because the highlights go grey, develope longer. The blacks look normal in the posted images and I would not screw with them.

Pushing film gives black "zones" with no density and detail where there should be detail and therefore print as featureless blacks, ok if that pleases you.

Ilford 3200 or Kodak T Max high speed pushed will give a very grainy image. These are around 1000 ISO true but pick up contrast with more time in developer. Shadow detail does not increase so you get the same blacks without detail as pushing if you expose higher than 1000.
 
Merelyok said:
Would dilution and development timings remain the same as Rodinal?
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Slightly different, as I recall they were like 1:40 where Rodinal was 1:50 or so, nothing you cannot handle by reading the bottle. I have used Foma's R09, so it cannot be too hard. ;-)

The bottles are well sealed, so if you have several small bottles, they will be like new for a long shelf life.

I think it was about $1 a bottle at the Foma store bottom on Wencelas Square, or FotoSkoda on Vodicova.

I was involved with Foma USA at one time, later Foma decided to aim more for Kodak list prices, and wanted their US wholesale to be higher than their Czech retail, but still should be reasonable for R09.

I think I posted a long history of this in another thread here from my friend Jan in Berlin who is the expert's expert on these things.

I mean to email him to find where he posted his "evolution" of all things in developers.

Bottom line, you will not be disappointed with the Foma soup, would love to hear from someone who has done definitive tests comparing both.

Jan did say that after WWII all of Agfa's formulas were published, and some companies in the East of Europe and elsewhere were licensed by Agfa.

Regards, John
 
Merelyok said:
Alrighty...here are the Tri-X perceptol results..

While the pictures were anything but grainy, i've found the combination to be particularly good in retaining details in the shadow area with good sharpness as well. Quite good all in all (although anything but grainy).

4543991650_3920e306f9_o.jpg


4543358401_3abd800b13_o.jpg


4543990990_dff9bfc1ff_o.jpg
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While displaying nice tonality these photos here appear smooth with a noticeable absence of grain. This combination may not be the best for procuring grain.

If it is a grainy combination that you are after then I would definetely reach for the Rodinal as others have suggested. I was using TRI-X and HP5 for ages with D76 1:1 and was doing everything to try and achieve some mongrel grain that was more like the images from the old formula TRI-X before they changed it. I was overexposing and overdeveloping but just couldn't get that old world result, until I switched to RODINAL and all of my prayers were answered!

I would suggest either of these combinations:

HP5 or TRI-X @ Rodinal at EI: 200 for 11 minutes at 20C. Agitate the first 30 seconds then 2 agitations at the start of each minute for the 1st 5 minutes then 1 agitation at each minute from then on. I suggested HP5 over TRI-X as it seems to have more inherent grain and more resembles the older emulsions, but you can use TRI-X with a similar result. Neopan 400 to my eye has the smoothest grain of the big 3.

OR

HP5 or TRI-X @ Rodinal at EI: 400 for 13 minutes at 20C. Same agitation pattern as above.


OR

Neopan 1600 (my favourite combination) at EI: 800 for outdoors cloudy conditions. Agitate the 1st minute then 2 agitations at the start of each minute then on at 20C. Total of 11 minutes.

OR

Neopan 1600 in hazy sun at EI:650 outdoors go for a total of 10:30 minutes and agitate the first minute then 1 agitation at the start of each minute at 20C. You can lose highlights easily playing with this combination in moderately hazy conditions so controlling the amount of times you agitate at the start of each minute is important. Fuji also recommneds agitating the 1st minute with this particular film.

OR

Ilford Delta 3200 at EI: 800 in cloudy conditions. Total time of 12 minutes at 20C. The grain from this film will be more fluffy like popcorn as opposed to the Neopan 1600 which is more gritty like sandpaper. You have to discover what kind of grain suits your style.

OR

TMAX 3200 at EI: 800 in cloudy conditions. 11:30 minutes. But can't get it at the moment - discontinued??

In highly recommend using a fast film like these Delta or Neopan with Rodinal - Neopan 1600 and Rodinal is absolutley amazing and can produce film noir like images.

I wouldn't use Dektol as you will lose it in the midtones with an overly contrasty image. It is a fine line to produce a nice grainy image that is not overly contrasty. If shooting at night with bright lights and shadows then Dektol can be your undoing.

The latest ZM or Leica ASPH lenses can get very contrasty very soon if you over agitate or develop for too long. I am very strict about temperature control and try to keep it just below 20C. I would rather develop for the full time to allow for the shadows to develop than cut it short coz the temp has gone up to 22C.

Hope this helps.

cheers
 
a question here:

I understand over-development will cause grain but what about over-exposure ? How does that create more gain, I would have thought under-development causes grainy (and muddy) pictures.

raytoei
 
Underexposure causes grainy (and muddy) pictures with color negative film...

Underdevelopment in B&W, considering you exposed correctly, gives less contrast on negative and printing: highlights don't reach the point of sparkling whites, and middle and high tones are less separated...

Underexposure in B&W makes too little tonal separation in the shadows, and as it's usually compensated with overdevelopment, you get more undetailed shadows and high grays than middle tones... That's pushing...

Overexposure can be useful with proper underdevelopment (pulling) to control high contrast scenes (direct sun) and get rich shadow detail without burnt highlights...

Cheers,

Juan
 
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