Did Leica ever sue?

[Lucadomi]

1916 Kodak camera with telemeter:

On 35mm the Contax 1 was also very old. Was the Leica II the first one?

 

[DominikDUK]

That however is mixing up many different things. Versailles doubtlessly messed with the German psyche, indirectly helping the Nazi climb to power, and while it caused considerable poverty in the post war era. But the camera industry actually was one of the few booming segments in 1920's Germany, against the general trend and impact of Versailles, and its crisis (that led to a series of state assisted mergers that ended in Zeiss Ikon) was a consequence of the global economic crisis and the reduced consumption it caused world-wide, and not a consequence of WWI, Versailles or indeed any development inside Germany.

Sevo we are both wrong me with Versailles and you with the Global crisis the merger was in 1926 a great year for German Cinema and the Germany optical Industry, the BAC/BAE example was correct though a state forced merger to create one big and stronger company (neither was the case in the end Bae was the death knell to British aviation and Zeiss Ikon to most of the German independent Camera mfg.) BAE is one of the worlds biggest weapons mfg these days but the A is more or less a thing of the past.

 

[DominikDUK]

So, did Leica come up with the first rangefinder camera or there were others before?

No they didn't Leica didn't come up with any firsts,it wasn't the first 35mm camera and it wasn't the first rangefinder camera. The first non coupled rangefinder(telemeter) cameras were build in the 1890's. The Multi-Speed Shutter Co. Simplex (1914) was the first full frame 35mm (production) camera. One load was 400 shots a later model had an even bigger film mag. 800 shot. Leica was really good at marketing.

 

[goamules]

After WW1 and WW2 all German patents were voided as war compensation, if that weren't the case let's just say Armstrong would never had set foot on the moon or Laika seen the earth orbit. The Mig and Sabre jetfighters would also never have existed.

And if wishes were candy it would be Christmas all year long. And we'd all be speaking German now, and millions of Germans wouldn't have been bombed into submission by the US and the Soviets after they started a futile war to take over the world. Yeah.... want to moan a little more about it? Never is a long long time, we would have been to the moon, and we probably would have been there faster if we didn't have to save Europe from the German holocaust and Lebensraum initiatives. I'd say it's a good thing we turned V-2 vengeance technology to something to something like the space program, and that Leica camera clones took over the world, instead of Nazi clones.

 

[kbg32]

After Germany's fall in WWll, the Soviets dismantled the Contax and BMW motorcycle factories and moved them to Russia.

 

[goamules]

After WWII, the Americans established the Marshall Plan, which besides giving Europe millions of dollars in food and aid, brought 3,000 Europeans to America for 6 month visits to learn new industrial techniques. There was a similar program in agriculture.

The Marshall Plan was set up because the Soviets under Stalin were attempting to allow chaos and starvation to keep Europe destabilized. They wanted to get more land and punish Germany more, besides what they already had, and their Iron Curtain that created generations of post-war occupation and arms races. Truman established the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift, and other programs to get Germany back on it's feet faster. Same with Japan, we rebuilt the countries that had attacked us.

 

[Lucadomi]

No they didn't Leica didn't come up with any firsts,it wasn't the first 35mm camera and it wasn't the first rangefinder camera. The first non coupled rangefinder(telemeter) cameras were build in the 1890's. The Multi-Speed Shutter Co. Simplex (1914) was the first full frame 35mm (production) camera. One load was 400 shots a later model had an even bigger film mag. 800 shot. Leica was really good at marketing.

Thanks. That is very interesting.
I wander what were the basis of their patent.

 

[Lucadomi]

After WWII, the Americans established the Marshall Plan, which besides giving Europe millions of dollars in food and aid, brought 3,000 Europeans to America for 6 month visits to learn new industrial techniques. There was a similar program in agriculture.

The Marshall Plan was set up because the Soviets under Stalin were attempting to allow chaos and starvation to keep Europe destabilized. They wanted to get more land and punish Germany more, besides what they already had, and their Iron Curtain that created generations of post-war occupation and arms races. Truman established the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift, and other programs to get Germany back on it's feet faster. Same with Japan, we rebuilt the countries that had attacked us.

So generous. Did drop a nuclear bomb there at the end of the war I think. But that is all good.

 

[goamules]

Yeah, and the Germans dropped a lot of Zyklon B on milliions of innocent people, and stole their property and land, and invaded a dozen countries, and used slave labor to build Vengence weapons, and were trying to build a nuclear bomb. What do you suppose they would have done with one? Danced around the Nazi Maypole with it? Sheeze.......evil empire calling the country that saved the world black.

I'm sure today's Germans or their parents or grandparents never reaped the benefit of American Aid, and yes, even Military protection from the Soviets, from 1945 until 1990? I'm sure the world would have been a better place if America had just stayed out of the war, and the Soviet non aggression pact had never been broken by the Nazis. Imagine the glorious place Europe would be today under Reich rule!

 

[citizen99]

After WW1 and WW2 all German patents were voided as war compensation, if that weren't the case let's just say Armstrong would never had set foot on the moon or Laika seen the earth orbit. The Mig and Sabre jetfighters would also never have existed.

Another input to the jet MIG :

The Brits had their own jets e.g. Meteor during the last years of the war,they were useful for shooting down the V-1 Flying Bombs. The engine design was more conservative, but more operationally durable, than the Jumo of eg the Me 262, although the latter design had the future when it was developed to last longer.

Anyway, in the late 1940s the British government sold some RR Nene engines to the Soviets, who promised not to copy them.
Yeah, right !
Reverse-engineered and enlarged, that was what powered the MIG-15.

 

[DominikDUK]

After WWII, the Americans established the Marshall Plan, which besides giving Europe millions of dollars in food and aid, brought 3,000 Europeans to America for 6 month visits to learn new industrial techniques. There was a similar program in agriculture.

The Marshall Plan was set up because the Soviets under Stalin were attempting to allow chaos and starvation to keep Europe destabilized. They wanted to get more land and punish Germany more, besides what they already had, and their Iron Curtain that created generations of post-war occupation and arms races. Truman established the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift, and other programs to get Germany back on it's feet faster. Same with Japan, we rebuilt the countries that had attacked us.

Well the marshall plan the Europeans had to pay for that Germany I believe until 2 or 3 years ago so no free lunch.
The Europeans also had to donate their patents to the US if the US so desired that was until the French were so fed up by the US in the 1960's for asking for the plans and designs of Concorde that they said no. The Bell X1 was mostly a british design, the microchip a Siemens invention and not Intel and the list goes on and on. Without those German the US wouldn't have had a Space program. You really think those Soviets didn't rebuild anything, also to be fair the Soviets lost nearly 20 Million people to the war and the devastation the German Army caused in the East is not even remotely comparable to damage and loses the US received from either the Japanese or the Germans. The whole Marshall plan was because the US was scared of the communists and not any kind of humanitarian feeling. Neither the West nor the East were great humanists

 

[mike rosenlof]

Moving back to Leica and patents, one story I've heard is that Zeiss held the patent(s) for a durable lens coating. German patents were not invalidated within Germany, so Leitz had to use a less desirable coating that was easily damaged by cleaning. One reason that Japanese lenses from the early post-war era hav aged better than some Leitz lenses.

 

[goamules]

Well the marshall plan the Europeans had to pay for that Germany I believe until 2 or 3 years ago so no free lunch.
The Europeans also had to donate their patents to the US if the US so desired that was until the French were so fed up by the US in the 1960's for asking for the plans and designs of Concorde that they said no. The Bell X1 was mostly a british design, the microchip a Siemens invention and not Intel and the list goes on and on. Without those German the US wouldn't have had a Space program. You really think those Soviets didn't rebuild anything, also to be fair the Soviets lost nearly 20 Million people to the war and the devastation the German Army caused in the East is not even remotely comparable to damage and loses the US received from either the Japanese or the Germans. The whole Marshall plan was because the US was scared of the communists and not any kind of humanitarian feeling. Neither the West nor the East were great humanists

Wrong, on many counts. Anyone can cherry pick a few technologies to rationalize how great a society was. But it wasn't, it was set up to kill anyone in it's way, as it expanded empire for Germany. Look at the big picture, and quit making sorry excuses and changing the subject about "who paid more." We all paid more, because of the arrogant Aryans.

Oh yeah, no one was staving in Europe in 1948! And Germans weren't split into two countries, and machine gunned by Soviets if they tried to get back together.

Germany had some good engineering, I'm not denying that. But they used it for evil. Even Werner Von Braun. Too bad Germany wasn't breaking the sound barrier, going to the moon, and building millions of industrial consumer goods. But they instead liked Hitler, and wanted to kill any non German, take over the land of Europe, and rule the world. Um....no....not going to work.

The Soviets, and the Americans and British and a few others stopped Germany and their dreams of a Third Riech. Yes, it cost everyone a lot of lives, and economic might. Don't forget who caused all that. Germany.

You're right, let's talk cameras. I just rankle when Nazi lovers try to act like America was the problem in the Mid 20th Century. We FIXED the problem.

 

[DominikDUK]

Another input to the jet MIG :

The Brits had there own jets e.g. Meteor during the last years of the war,they were useful for shooting down the V-1 Flying Bombs. The engine design was more conservative, but more operationally durable, than the Jumo of eg the Me 262, although the latter design had the future when it was developed to last longer.

Anyway, in the late 1940s the British government sold some RR Nene engines to the Soviets, who promised not to copy them.
Yeah, right !
Reverse-engineered and enlarged, that was what powered the MIG-15.

The British were the big exception and the Gloster actually predated the ME262 again it seems a case of bad marketing on the brits part. The Mig and Sabre copies are not copies of engine design but of plane designs the Messerschmitt P.1101.
The Jet engine predates WW2 weirdly enough the Ramjet the next thing was inventen before WW1 but the planes build at that time wood and fabric couldn't use them.

The British created some of the best and most beautiful Plane designs but were severly hindered by the Lend Lease deal they had with the US which forbade them the production of Transport planes. This showed after WW2, the british simply didn't have the knowhow the US had in producing large planes. The Comet is still the most beautiful Jetliner imo and it's nose is very much in fashion the Frenche Caravelle and now boeings 787

The Reid Leica copy is also better than the original 🙂 another great british design.

 

[DominikDUK]

Wrong. Oh yeah, no one was staving in Europe in 1948! And Germans weren't split into two countries, and machine gunned by Soviets if they tried to get back together.

Germany had some good engineering, I'm not denying that. But they used it for evil. Even Werner Von Braun. Too bad Germany wasn't breaking the sound barrier, going to the moon, and building millions of industrial consumer goods. But they instead liked Hitler, and wanted to kill any non German, take over the land of Europe, and rule the world. Um....no....not going to work.

The Soviets, and the Americans and British and a few others stopped Germany and their dreams of a Third Riech. Yes, it cost everyone a lot of lives, and economic might. Don't forget who caused all that. Germany.

Actually I quoted a few non German designs and the Soviets (Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, etc...)were definetly not the evil you made them out to be and the war against the communists and evil dictators cost some 30 Million lifes since WW2 and yes the Germans caused WW2. No major power past or present has any right to feel morally superior they aren't. They all only care about one thing themselves.

 

[BillBingham2]

Trying to get back to the original topic.

German engineers from several companies were sent to Japan early in the war and ended up staying. Contax engineers worked at the company that became Nikon, I think Leica engineers worked at what became Canon. They stayed after the war ended, my guess is because life in either location then was very hard and they had jobs where they were.

These days companies buy other companies to get access to their patents then sell them off (e.g., Taurus Arms bought S&W) keeping right to use what they had when they own them.

B2 (;->

 

[santino]

How come a simple question can cause so much strange discussion? IMO no country provides help just because of humanitarism. Do ut des - neither the US nor the former USSR. And yes, nobody claims it weren't the Germans.. :bang:

 

[tomnrides]

This is all very exciting and educational discussion but historical pixel peeping should be performed in the context of hominids all coming out of africa and taking over preceding populations.
we are not bonobos, we have more chimp genes, e.g. aggressive violent tendencies.

back to Leica,

 

[Lucadomi]

Moving back to Leica and patents, one story I've heard is that Zeiss held the patent(s) for a durable lens coating. German patents were not invalidated within Germany, so Leitz had to use a less desirable coating that was easily damaged by cleaning. One reason that Japanese lenses from the early post-war era hav aged better than some Leitz lenses.

I was looking for a Rolleiflex 2.8D without too many coating marks in the Xenotar. Hard to find.
Did not know Zeiss had better lens coating. But you were actually talking prewar.

 

[DominikDUK]

Trying to get back to the original topic.

German engineers from several companies were sent to Japan early in the war and ended up staying. Contax engineers worked at the company that became Nikon, I think Leica engineers worked at what became Canon. They stayed after the war ended, my guess is because life in either location then was very hard and they had jobs where they were.

These days companies buy other companies to get access to their patents then sell them off (e.g., Taurus Arms bought S&W) keeping right to use what they had when they own them.

B2 (;->

+ 1 I believe the technological exchange of person, materials and plans lasted nearly until the end.

Regarding coating lens coating was a Zeiss Patent and Leica coated lenses of the war years most likely were build for the Military and for propaganda use not the average Leica user.