Digital M Update

[Mackinaw]

The Leica Histtorical Society of America (LHSA) is currently holding its annual meeting and one of the speakers was Stefan Daniel of Leica. What you see below is what he said about the upcoming Leica M. This was posted on the Leica Forum earlier today. The author of the original post is at the LHSA meeting and this is from the notes he jotted down. Also remember it's only October and things may change before the camera is actually released in 2006. If you wish to know more, get on the Leica Forum and go to the "Customer Forum" and look for the post "Digital M--A few more Details."

Jim Bielecki

"- Digital M will preserve continuity of look
and form factor with existing M cameras

- optical rangefinder

- modified R9 type shutter

- 1.33 crop factor, not full frame

- 10.5 megapixel sensor

- 2.5" playback only screen

- 1/8000 top shutter speed

- lithium ion battery

- SD memory card

- self-timer

- auto-shutter cocking

- USB 2.0 connector, no video out

- supports RAW

- black and white mode in JPEG

- 5 or 6 sets of framelines (TBA)

- VF magnification TBA

- shutter lag goal under 20 milliseconds

- upgradable digital componentry under consideration
but not promised

- digital sensor partner is German (not Imacon)

- camera to be made in Germany

- price goal under US$5K

- targeted to ship at Photokina 2006

- expect compatibility with 95-97% of existing
Leica lenses

- expect new Leica M lenses in the ultra-wide
range, which are also to be compatible with
existing M cameras (philosophy is against
digital-only lenses)

- compatibility with wide-angle M lenses to be
achieved as follows: incorporate new micro-lens
offset technology in front of sensor; micro-lens
design to be ultra-flat; replacement of pre-sensor
anti-aliasing filter with software solution;
infra-red cut-off filter to be incorporated into
sensor cover glass, to be made of scratch-
resistant material; separate cover glass thus
eliminated."

 

[zeos 386sx]

Thank you, Mackinaw, this information is like Manna from heaven. I'm thrilled that Leica is finally taking the lid off the information.

However, my problem is lens compatability "with 95-97% of existing
Leica lenses". I have a goggled 135 Elmarit - will it or not???.

 

[jlw]

Interesting info, and potentially even realistic.

One interesting question: Will the Leica faithful embrace a camera with a built-in motor? (This is implied by "auto shutter cocking.") May be a moot point, though, as a significant number of people OTHER than "Leica faithful" might be interested in this thing.​

I admit to having been impatient in the past with some of speculative "featurizing" that's been going on about the digital M, but this at least doesn't sound excessively ambitious or over-optimistic. Basically, we're talking about a camera that offers a realistic step-up from the actual, existing Epson R-D 1 -- with 10mp instead of 6, a slightly larger sensor, more finder frames, higher top shutter speed, and motorized shutter wind -- at a fairly realistic price premium of $2,000 or so.

If they can bring that off -- which sounds plausible -- I think they'd have a viable camera, as long as they don't boot the final execution with inept controls, a hideously ugly design, lousy image processing, etc.

In short: I'm no Leica idolator, but I'd be interested in such a camera as a step-up from my R-D 1, which has had such a huge positive impact on my photography that I feel a more-capable digital RF would be well worth the money.

Guess I'd better start saving, and forget about buying a new car in 2006 (sigh)...

 

[zeos 386sx]

If they can bring that off -- which sounds plausible -- I think they'd have a viable camera, as long as they don't boot the final execution with inept controls, a hideously ugly design, lousy image processing, etc.

In short: I'm no Leica idolator, but I'd be interested in such a camera as a step-up from my R-D 1, which has had such a huge positive impact on my photography that I feel a more-capable digital RF would be well worth the money.

I don't think Leica would know how to make an "ugly" camera.

I wouldn't write off Epson. They are working on the R-D2 and it could offer a real challenge to the digital M. Given Epson's experience with the R-D1 its R-D2 might end up being a better camera than the digital M. There is nothing to keep Epson from dropping a 10 megapixel - or higher - sensor into the R-D2.

 

[zeos 386sx]

The R9 uses a vertical Microprocessor-controlled metal leaf shutter. Is it possible to "preserve continuity of look and form factor with existing M cameras" using a vertical shutter. I wish that Leica would just tell us what lenses they think the Digital M will use and whether it will mount a Visoflex!

However, it sounds like the camera is being refered to as a Digital M by Leica - at least we may know what to call it now. 🙂

 

[Peter Klein]

The R9 uses a vertical Microprocessor-controlled metal leaf shutter. Is it possible to "preserve continuity of look and form factor with existing M cameras" using a vertical shutter. I wish that Leica would just tell us what lenses they think the Digital M will use and whether it will mount a Visoflex!

However, it sounds like the camera is being refered to as a Digital M by Leica - at least we may know what to call it now. 🙂

I was at the LHSA meeting. Stefan said that the camera would basically look like an M7, but would be a little bit thicker. The RF would be the same as before, just with different frame masks to account for the crop factor. When asked what would happen if you mounted a Visoflex on the digital M, Stefan said simply that you would have a digital SLR. The implication is that it would work as the camera is currently planned.

If I recall correctly, the issue of lenses had mostly to do with the extreme wides and lenses whose rear element went deeply into the camera. They have worked on means to deal with the higher angles of incidence in an RF camera, but there may be a limit. And you have a anti-aliasing filter in front of the sensor, with the shutter therefore a little further out than in the film M cameras.

I think the "most lenses" issue came up regarding the old Super-Angulon, but don't quote me. I don't think this issue applies to long lenses. Then again, he talked about a sensor design that included offsetting the microlenses at the edges of the sensor, to catch more light at oblique angles. So a lens that's *too* telephoto might have the same problem as the wides do on conventional dslrs. But from the way Stefan talked, they were very serious about making it as compatible with every existing M lens as humanly possible.

Stay tuned on that one, I guess.

--Peter

 

[zeos 386sx]

I was at the LHSA meeting. Stefan said that the camera would basically look like an M7, but would be a little bit thicker. The RF would be the same as before, just with different frame masks to account for the crop factor. When asked what would happen if you mounted a Visoflex on the digital M, Stefan said simply that you would have a digital SLR. The implication is that it would work as the camera is currently planned.

Peter, your a saint! :angel: Thank you. That information makes it so much easier for me to keep saving money.

I suppose I will have to get a new groundglass for my visoflex that matches the crop factor. I wonder if I can get a new groundglass from Leica that matches the Digital M frame - or maybe I can just get DAG to make me a mask.

 

[RML]

I wouldn't write off Epson. They are working on the R-D2 and it could offer a real challenge to the digital M. Given Epson's experience with the R-D1 its R-D2 might end up being a better camera than the digital M. There is nothing to keep Epson from dropping a 10 megapixel - or higher - sensor into the R-D2.

I haven't heard any mention of Epson working on an R-D2. It could be that, because of my forced 4-week absence from the internet, I haven't been able to keep up-to-date quite as much as I would like to but where did you dig up this information?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

That sounds really good. The 1.3 crop factor is better than most digital cameras I've dealt with. The motorized shutter mechanism is probably smaller than the manual cocking mechanism. 10MPixels is in the same league as Nikon. The price is also good.

> I don't think Leica would know how to make an "ugly" camera.

Should I put my Leicaflex with the CDS meter and Battery compartment on the front name plate on display?

http://www.kbcamera.com/leicaflex.htm

 

[eskorpid]

Hmmm ! ! !
Digital M . . . right ! ! !

Personally, what I enjoy the most when shooting with my M3 or even with my Oly SP is the simplicity and the concentration on the subject that they offer. I feel very much distracted when I have to check parameters like white-balance, complex metering patterns, image previews, etc.
I am really gonna resist becoming a camera user rather than a photographer, and definitely not going digital for as long as I can find film on the market; not because of the high price tag, but because I want to learn every day from my mistakes.
And learning takes time . . . more than we have been given as human beings !
All those digital "make my life easier" stuff, are not gonna give soul to your images. That's for sure...

 

[RML]

Hmmm ! ! !
Digital M . . . right ! ! !

Personally, what I enjoy the most when shooting with my M3 or even with my Oly SP is the simplicity and the concentration on the subject that they offer. I feel very much distracted when I have to check parameters like white-balance, complex metering patterns, image previews, etc.
I am really gonna resist becoming a camera user rather than a photographer, and definitely not going digital for as long as I can find film on the market; not because of the high price tag, but because I want to learn every day from my mistakes.
And learning takes time . . . more than we have been given as human beings !
All those digital "make my life easier" stuff, are not gonna give soul to your images. That's for sure...

Better not display that kind of attitude here. Most of the digital crowd are also avid film shooters and know to use the best tool for the right job. Digital has its place, even if you don't like it. No offense meant. 🙂

 

[eskorpid]

Please accept my apologies if my post sounded somewhat aggressive. I didn't mean to be offensive for the digital users, I just expressed some personal thoughts and nothing more than that.
My appreciation for the members of this forum is given and I have found so much useful information among the posts that I really feel lucky that we all share our dedication for R/Fs under the same roof.

cheers

 

[pvdhaar]

Personally, what I enjoy the most when shooting with my M3 or even with my Oly SP is the simplicity and the concentration on the subject that they offer. I feel very much distracted when I have to check parameters like white-balance, complex metering patterns, image previews, etc.

I think it's a matter of time before things start to settle down in the digital world. Everyone is trying everything possible before we'll get to a form factor that really works as well as with film cameras.

The fact that digital rangefinders are appearing (RD1 and M coming) is an indication that manufacturers start appreciating the fact that users want user cameras with no frills..

Same goes for DSLRs, which although packed with features and options, are surprisingly easy to migrate to when you're used to a film-SLR in that manufacturer's lineup..

Now that the early adopter's market gets saturated, manufacturers are forced to look at potential customers that were not impressed by hype, bells and whistles.. and they'll serve them..

 

[sfb_dot_com]

- 10.5 megapixel sensor
- 2.5" playback only screen
- 1/8000 top shutter speed
- lithium ion battery
- SD memory card
- self-timer
- auto-shutter cocking
- USB 2.0 connector, no video out
- supports RAW
- black and white mode in JPEG
- 5 or 6 sets of framelines (TBA)
- VF magnification TBA
- shutter lag goal under 20 milliseconds
- upgradable digital componentry under consideration
but not promised
- digital sensor partner is German (not Imacon)

Hmmm verrry interesting. A lot of this sounds very similar to the just-today announced Nikon D200. (http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID202/54.html) Given that it is widely thought that the RD1's sensor is from the D70, could this mean convergence of technology?? It would make sense for some of the smaller imaging companies to share technology against the might of the likes of Canon.

Anyway, on a completely different note, if there is a successor to the RD1, will it be called the R2D2? 😀 (Sorry - couldn't resist!)

Andy

 

[jaapv]

Tallies with everything that was known until now.... 🙂 🙂 I'm saving, I have mine ordered. Film or digital, both have their place, but I prefer the flexibility of the digital darkroom.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

> All those digital "make my life easier" stuff, are not gonna give soul to your images. That's for sure...

I have a Nikon E3, a circa 1998 Digital SLR with reduction optics to make it full frame. It will take any Nikon lens made since 1959 that does not require mirror lock-up. When using pre-AI lenses, the meter turns off and you are REALLY manual. Digital SLR and Weston Master II meter.

 

[jaapv]

Hmmm ! ! !
Digital M . . . right ! ! !

Personally, what I enjoy the most when shooting with my M3 or even with my Oly SP is the simplicity and the concentration on the subject that they offer. I feel very much distracted when I have to check parameters like white-balance, complex metering patterns, image previews, etc.
I am really gonna resist becoming a camera user rather than a photographer, and definitely not going digital for as long as I can find film on the market; not because of the high price tag, but because I want to learn every day from my mistakes.
And learning takes time . . . more than we have been given as human beings !
All those digital "make my life easier" stuff, are not gonna give soul to your images. That's for sure...

As a matter of fact, getting digital right is NOT going to make your life easier 🙁 . It takes a steep learning curve and -don't worry- plenty of mistakes to learn from. The darkroom is back in town ! As for soul- one of the reactions to the Leica DMR is:"Kodachrome is back!" It is not the same, of course, but given the right technique digital is at least as interesting for hobby-photographers like me. For professionals and quality freaks, I fear the balance has swung practically all the way to digital. Two factors have given digital a bad name for looking "dead". 1. The natural reaction to a new technology of overcorrecting and overpolishing images and 2. the use of a CMOS sensor by Canon, which because of a heavy anti-alias filter and extremely low noise (read grain) produced by the Digic processors gives images that are faultless but can easily be processed to being soulless. The Kodak DSLR's and now the Leica have proven that it can be done differently (it can be done with Canon as well). Just compare that to early CD's that are too smooth compared to Vinyl and think of modern recordings, that come much closer.
Just to prevent any feeling that this is an anti-film post: I do love playing LP's besides CD's and I will never part with my M3 and Elmar 50! 😉

 

[zeos 386sx]

I haven't heard any mention of Epson working on an R-D2. It could be that, because of my forced 4-week absence from the internet, I haven't been able to keep up-to-date quite as much as I would like to but where did you dig up this information?

Epson R-D1 forum. "Rumors about the Epson R-D2?"

The director of the R-D1 project for Epson is quoted in Zone Numérique:

"Indeed, we have already started working on the next one. We don't have a release date yet but we can say that if we, at Epson, are ending the production of compact digicams, we are definitely going for the digital rangefinder market." - translation by Marc Jutras

 

[zeos 386sx]

> I don't think Leica would know how to make an "ugly" camera.

Should I put my Leicaflex with the CDS meter and Battery compartment on the front name plate on display?

http://www.kbcamera.com/leicaflex.htm

That's a beautiful camera. It just has a couple of warts. 😛

 

[dcsang]

Hmmmmmmm..
I'd like to find out who the maker of the sensor is seeing as how Leica claims that it's German made and NOT Imacon.

For some reason or other I can only think of "Sony" and "Canon" and "Fuji" as making sensors...

Dave