Digital Question: B&W

[ruben]

I am curious about digital. I would like to ask what BW print can you achieve today from a digital printing lab, originated from a good digital camera plus Photoshop if necessary. And how this compares to manual printing of BW negatives.

Thanks in advance,
Ruben

 

[lubitel]

I had once a large b&w file printed at a local lab. It had a very light color cast. They wanted JPGs only, because TIFFs "are too big" she said. Havent experimented with it long enough to help you more.

 

[kully]

I've had good prints from 'Photobox', a UK based company.

However, the tonal range is not amazing, but fine as long as you don't compare it against an enlarger print.

I had no problem with colour casts.

 

[Socke]

I convert to B/W or start with a B/W negative, do all the adjustments needed, resize to the desired format at 300dpi and store it as sRGB jpeg.

I have the ICM color profiles for the labs I use and get very close to B/W prints on RC paper, so close an uninitiated person doesn't notice any differences.

 

[ruben]

I convert to B/W or start with a B/W negative, do all the adjustments needed, resize to the desired format at 300dpi and store it as sRGB jpeg.

I have the ICM color profiles for the labs I use and get very close to B/W prints on RC paper, so close an uninitiated person doesn't notice any differences.

Hi Socke:

1) Am I to understand that for the sake of BW digital lab print there is no difference wether the file comes from a digital camera or a scanned neg ?

2) What are "ICM color profiles" ?

Thank you for your kind attention

 

[sf]

That's a very broad question. I mean, you can achieve a fine print from digital in B&W. Not that different from scanned film. The quality of the image depends on the sensor, post processing, etc.

Overall, I always though digital lacked tonality, but from what I've seen of the RD-1, I can't say that is invariably the case.

 

[Socke]

Hi Ruben,

the d-max of the paper and the digital printing process are the limiting factors. You won't get 12 stops on paper.

So you have to make a decision how much of the shaddow detail and how much of the highlights you sacrifice for your print.

Another thing is the fileformat, jpeg with 8 bits per pixel doesn't carry much dynamic range and if your lab is as mine and converts to jpeg before printing it is better to do the conversion oneselfes to avoid a colorcast.

ICM profiles are definitions of the way color is represented on a certain device, although it is impossible to simulate one device on another you can get close enough to judge your output before it is printed.
Hm, with a monitor we use red, green and blue to mix something like 16 millon colors, in a print we use cyan, magenta and yellow. The monitor emits light and teh print reflects light.

You can get real black by switching off the pixels in the monitor but you can't get real black by printing cyan magenta and yellow, so you add real black in a print.
With a propper calibrated monitor you should get something white enough but on a print your white is limited to what the paper offers.

 

[ruben]

That's a very broad question. ....

I think it will be very worthy for many people here if you could detail. Let's call it The Digital Way to a Nice Digital Lab BW Print (11x14inch):
a)
b)
c).............



Thank you.

 

[ruben]

Hi Ruben,

the d-max of the paper and the digital printing process are the limiting factors. You won't get 12 stops on paper.

..............

Thank you Socke for your lenghty effort in your detailed replay.

Regarding you here mentioned statement let's be more clear. Although I have never tested it (and definitely I should have !), it seems to me that b&w RC paper has a latitude of 4 or 5 f/stops (am I correct?). Now:

a) What is the latitude of a computer screen ?

b) What is the latitude of lab paper for digital prints ?

 

[Socke]

a) find a local lab doing 11x14 inch

That's where it stops here

So let's reduce it to 13x18cm what they do here

a) Find a lab you can work with, i.E. the operator has some time to listen to you and work with you on your files so that the prints turn out right. I'm lucky, I have two minilabs in real photo shops nearby with operators who are either photographers or trained darkroom technicians.
b) make a scan from a negative you have wet printed, resize and convert and have it printed
c) show your wet print to the operator and ask him for tips and tricks to adjust your file for the digital printer/minilab
d) apply the tips and tricks

repeat c and d until satisfied 🙂

 

[Socke]

Jep, 4 to 5 stops is my gutfeeling, too. Color paper is not too far from RC B/W paper if at all. I've had reports that Epson 4800 printers and special papers show more latitued than a toned print, but that's not an option for me, much too expensive.

I'm playing with Kodak Endura Metallic Paper at the moment, usualy for "toned" B/W prints, with results I like. It has blacker blacks than normal Kodak paper.

 

[ruben]

a) find a local lab doing 11x14 inch

That's where it stops here

So let's reduce it to 13x18cm what they do here

Hellow, am I talking with Socke? Germany? Europe? 13x18 ? Hellow, Hellow ?

 

[Socke]

Most of the minilabs use paper which is some 18cm wide and won't change to wider rolls for a couple of prints.

 

[sf]

I think it will be very worthy for many people here if you could detail. Let's call it The Digital Way to a Nice Digital Lab BW Print (11x14inch):
a)
b)
c).............



Thank you.

1. Make sure your monitor is calibrated well.
2. Make sure you've got all your histogram where it needs to be.
3. Make sure the file is a compatible format
4. make sure your dpi matches what they want for printing. Most places say 300.
5. Make sure it is on useable media (a compact flash might not be appropriate)
6. make sure they are going to do things as you wish them to be done.

 

[ruben]

Ok, Socke, I have just called my neighbourhood lab:

-By standard digital printing at standard prices, their maximum size is 45x30 cm at u$d 6.20 each.

-For non-standard digital printing at non standard prices, their maximum size is 120 cm wide and unlimited lenght.

Therefore, any favour I can do for you here will be most welcome !

Cheers,
Ruben

PS: Is Socke-Bloke-Volker really living in Bremen, Germany ? Nahhh !

 

[Socke]

The minilab Photo Dose has at the major train station, 20 minutes walk from here, does up to 18cm wide. Everything else is send to a photo finisher in Oldenburg or printed on a plotter.

The other minilab I trust is some 8 km away and they can do more if you can wait until they've got enough orders for bigger prints.

Got Google Earth? I live where the red car is parked, mine was the one with the dust.

 

[ruben]

...Got Google Earth? I live where the red car is parked, mine was the one with the dust.

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Well, no Google Earth, but it seems better printing facilities around. I cannot believe it. Jerusalem, beyond arqueology is a pist off hill.

 

[robert blu]

Interesting suggestions Socke, I'll have something to try in next days ! thanks and ciao
rob

 

[mike goldberg]

Re: DIGITAL QUESTION B & W

Re: DIGITAL QUESTION B & W

Hi...
I replied to Ruben's query in the wee hours. A former working Photojournalist...
I'm relatively new in RFF [and lovin' it!].

Some of the guys that have replied, know far more than I do about the technics My message is really more of a SPIRITUAL nature. I've owned and sold and bought, a lot of photo gear through the years, and I'm still at it.

In the past 2 years, I've been happily shooting Digital about 95% of the time. NOW, I'm returning to FILM, espcially B & W. THESE ARE THE IMAGES THAT SING TO MY HEART IN RFF. It's also perfectly acceptable to grab a Canon Powershot 'A' or 'S' series digicam, when on the run.

As far as labs go: for professional results, a Pro Lab is best. Some of you guys out there know just how to tweak the variables [including Photoshop], to get the most from your nearby mini-lab; great!

Here's a metaphor: Twenty plus years ago, the Compact Disc revolutionized the music industry. And, there are still some purists who enjoy the 'soul' in their LP's, with high end earphones.

There are so many fine images in RFF that inspire and record themselves into our picture making db. I thank Ruben and other new friends, for sharing the info on how your pix were made.

Cheers 🙂

 

[DougK]

I've gotten surprisingly good B&W prints straight out of my Epson Stylus C62 inkjet with source images from a 5MP Minolta Dimage 7i converted to B&W in PS Elements. They aren't equal to a wet print but they're plenty good enough to matte and hang on the wall with no color cast I could detect. Using the best inkjet paper I could get was the key, I think. I haven't tried sending my files to a lab yet but I will be doing that very soon (once I finish scanning the negatives).