Ernst Leitz yellow / orange / yellow-green filter compensations with Ilford FP4 and HP5

[F456]

I hope I am using the right forum for this as it involves film and filters but not development or chemistry which are via an outside lab.

Knowing that exposure compensation with colour filters for b&w photos can vary depending on film used, what are the recommendations (or from your own experience) for each of the following when used with Ilford FP4 Plus or HP5 Plus b&w films shot and developed at box speeds and box processing recommendations (125 and 400 respectively)?

Leitz E43 filters slim-line (for use with Summilux 50mm )
1 ( = yellow)
Or ( = orange)
GGr ( = gelbgrün / yellow green).

Many thanks. I ask because I read on RFF of adjustments in practice varying from leaflet. Don't be shy to mention what the industry recommendations are as there are so many designations used by different manufacturers that your expertise and knowledge will be very welcome in all respects!

Thank you.

PS. I am using these on the Summilux on an M3 with handheld meter and having a wonderful time with that combination. But no results will be back till early next week.

 

[Rayt]

I add 1.5 stops for Orange and 1 stop for Y2 and GGr when I use handheld meters both reflective and incidental. For spot meters with a filter thread I meter through the filter.

 

[Coldkennels]

Many thanks. I ask because I read on RFF of adjustments in practice varying from leaflet. Don't be shy to mention what the industry recommendations are as there are so many designations used by different manufacturers that your expertise and knowledge will be very welcome in all respects!

I've always operated on 1 stop for yellow, 2 stops for orange or green, 1.5 stops for yellow/green (although usually just 1 stop in practice).

It does depend a lot on light quality/temperature, though. For instance, I've recently seen people on the internet blindly using yellow filters indoors under artificial light (which is already very yellow) and not getting the results they expected.

As you point out, different films will also have different responses to these filters. At the extreme end, I used an orange filter on ortho film without thinking once and just got a blank frame for my troubles. FP4+ and HP5+ are both traditional-style films, but I don't think they handle filters exactly the same way. Ilford's own datasheets just say "follow the instructions given by the filter manufacturer", for what it's worth.

Digging through some old Leitz pamphlets on Butkus' camera manual site, I found this chart in a Leitz New York accessory guide from the 1930s:



Obviously, none of these films exist any more, but it does show how really the only way to know for sure is to do some testing and make some notes!

 

[raydm6]

Wow, first I heard of Perutz films. Some interesting examples.

Early Perutz Films

Perutz

www.photomemorabilia.co.uk

Labeauratoire : Perutz Perpantic 17

And, a 1965 commercial for Perutz color film shot in B&W! 🙂

 

[chuckroast]

I add 1.5 stops for Orange and 1 stop for Y2 and GGr when I use handheld meters both reflective and incidental. For spot meters with a filter thread I meter through the filter.

Spot metering through a filter can be misleading because the spectral response of the meter may not properly read the correction through color. Moreover, the meter's understanding of color may be different than how monochrome film sees it.

Many years ago, Fred Picker at Zone VI tried to remedy this by correcting the spectral response of a Pentax digital meter (I own one of them). It was successful but only for Tri-X as I recall, because other films had somewhat different spectral sensitivity.

Since monochrome film isn't that fussy about perfect exposure, I bias toward overexposing slightly with filters using these corrections and bracketing a half stop for important subjects:

Yellow - 1 extra stop
Orange - 2 extra stops
Deep Red - 3 extra stops

 

[38Deardorff]

Spot metering through a filter can be misleading because the spectral response of the meter may not properly read the correction through color. Moreover, the meter's understanding of color may be different than how monochrome film sees it.

Many years ago, Fred Picker at Zone VI try to remedy this by correcting the spectral response of a Pentax digital meter (I own one of them). It was successful but only for Tri-X as I recall, because other films had somewhat different spectral sensitivity.

Since monochrome film fussy that about perfect exposure, I bias toward overexposing slightly with filters using these corrections and bracketing a half stop for important subjects:

Yellow - 1 extra stop
Orange - 2 extra stops
Deep Red - 3 extra stops

CR, I use the same filter factors as you.... w success.

 

[F456]

Thank you; all absorbed. The GGr (yellow-green) filter still leaves me a bit confused as I see recommendations ranging from 1 through 1.5 to 2 stops of extra exposure. Of course, as suggested, some experimentation is needed so there's probably nothing for it but to be patient and sacrifice a first film, one for each of the FP and HP emulsions. for bracketing tests with that particular filter and then wait to see the negatives before trying it out more seriously.

The M3 in any event seems to encourage a more deliberate, patient approach.

 

[Freakscene]

Thank you; all absorbed. The GGr (yellow-green) filter still leaves me a bit confused as I see recommendations ranging from 1 through 1.5 to 2 stops of extra exposure. Of course, as suggested, some experimentation is needed so there's probably nothing for it but to be patient and sacrifice a first film, one for each of the FP and HP emulsions. for bracketing tests with that particular filter and then wait to see the negatives before trying it out more seriously.

The M3 in any event seems to encourage a more deliberate, patient approach.

There are a lot of different shades of green-yellow. Put your filter on a camera with ttl metering and measure the same scene, and check the difference in stops. That won’t be perfect (different meters tend to have different colour sensitivities) but it’s a start.

 

[F456]

There are a lot of different shades of green-yellow. Put your filter on a camera with ttl metering and measure the same scene, and check the difference in stops. That won’t be perfect (different meters tend to have different colour sensitivities) but it’s a start.

Good idea. No idea why I didn't think of that - probably in fact because I haven't recently been using metered cameras compatible with the lenses, but I can borrow one easily enough. Thank you!

 

[Rayt]

I have a lot of color filters from 39mm to 105mm made by B+W, Heliopan, Rollei, Hasselblad and Leica. Even with the same filter factor I can see plainly they vary in darkness. So I don’t sweat it over small exposure differences and films react to filtration differently due to spectrum response curves anyway. Also at what angle do I hold out that incident meter or where I sample that spot meter and if that 50 year old shutter is accurate at all plus endless development variables will more so influence the end product. I just do my best to be consistent.

 

[Coldkennels]

I did some digging and found this chart in a Leitz catalogue from 1964:



This might be the exact answer you're looking for, @F456 - Leitz themselves consider their GGr/Yellow-Green filter a "medium" and give a filter factor of 2-3, which is 1 to 1.5 stops.

(Also, why is an A36 red filter not listed? I'm sure I've seen a Leitz A36 red somewhere before.)

 

[Freakscene]

(Also, why is an A36 red filter not listed? I'm sure I've seen a Leitz A36 red somewhere before.)

If they stopped making them for a few years they usually stopped cataloguing them. I’ve seen this for numerous small accessories.

 

[Coldkennels]

I'm surprised they stopped making those for a while and not the blue filter. In the previous page they described the blue filter as being used to make faded text look darker when making photocopies, and that it has no real use for general photography. I know I rarely see Leitz blue filters crop up anywhere, so I can't imagine they sold that many.

I've considered picking an A36 one up to accentuate fog in photos of woods and the like - I think that on a Summar would be perfect for it - but I'm not sure how often I'd use the thing if I could even find one!

 

[Freakscene]

I'm surprised they stopped making those for a while and not the blue filter. In the previous page they described the blue filter as being used to make faded text look darker when making photocopies, and that it has no real use for general photography. I know I rarely see Leitz blue filters crop up anywhere, so I can't imagine they sold that many.

I've considered picking an A36 one up to accentuate fog in photos of woods and the like - I think that on a Summar would be perfect for it - but I'm not sure how often I'd use the thing if I could even find one!

They may have had a supply of the filters for which there was lower demand even if they were not making them. Leica were surprisingly good at understanding demand in the 50s and 60s.

I have a giant pile of weird Leitz filters from pre-WWII through to the 70s that I was given. I should sort through them.

 

[Coldkennels]

I have a giant pile of weird Leitz filters from pre-WWII through to the 70s that I was given. I should sort through them.

If you have an A36 blue and an A36 graduated yellow I might be interested - especially if they're in the plastic clamshell cases. I know both exist but like I said: hen's teeth.

 

[Freakscene]

If you have an A36 blue and an A36 graduated yellow I might be interested - especially if they're in the plastic clamshell cases. I know both exist but like I said: hen's teeth.

I’ll take a look and let you know.

 

[Mcary]

I find that I get results that I like using a Orange filter with - 2 extra stops whither I'm shooting HP5+, Kentmere 100 &400 and Tri-X in both 35mm with my Leica M2 and with the same films in medium format. Current mostly shoot with Tri-X and simply set my meter at ISO 100 when using an Orange filter.