Digital rangefinder cameras please?

"Then Cosina can contact Fill Factory to install that $90 9Mp Cmos into their Voigtlander Bessas for very little development investment, taking the lessons they learnt from making RD-1s for Epson, to join in the fun.

Kev -
Major kudos to you, I couldn't have said this any better. So, if Mr. K is surfing around I hope he hears the plea. A digital Bessa? Too cool. 🙂
 
First off, Kev T, welcome to the forum! Several of your thoughts echo my own.

I think the jury is still out over whether a good digital RF is a viable commercial product. There is a "perception" out there that RF and prime lenses are things of the past, but many people who are serious about photography don't buy into that. The question is, how many? I don't know the answer. But I can tell you that the lackluster sales of the R-D1 has as much to do with marketing mistakes, QC issues and price as it does with it simply being a rangefinder.

I often wonder why people make such a big deal out of the crop factor issue. I spent a weekend recently with a borrowed R-D1, wearing my contact lenses so I could use the 1:1 viewfinder. I mostly used a 35mm Leica lens mounted on it. It acted like a 50. I like 50mm lenses. I liked the combination. My 50 became an effective 75mm. I don't use 75mm normally, but I could get used to it. A 24mm would become a 36mm. Close enough to a 35 for my purposes.

Many of us could use a digital RF with a crop factor of 1.33 - 1.5, and only have to buy one more lens at the wide end.

Yes, the mass market always chooses convenience over quality, but RFs are not a mass market. They are a niche market. Apply the digital technology derived from DSLRs, put in a decent viewfinder and RF, and don't price it out of the market of real photographers (as opposed to watch collectors). A lot of us would buy. Probably enough to make a viable niche product.

Kev T's idea of a body-based autofocus mirrors a thought I've had for a long time. Autofocus is convenient, and its lack is one of the big reasons why the digerati pooh-pooh RF cameras. Well, if you had an optional body-based autofocus--set the lens on infinty and the body racks it in and out--there goes one of the marketing reasons why RFs don't sell. So when we're shooting our HCB-wannabe shots in the cafes of Paris or the bars of Peoria, we can use the manual RF. For street photography, switch it on autofocus. Why not?

--Peter
 
It's rangefinder forum, not a film only rangefinder forum. Discussion of digital should remain in the mix.

Why make a high end system? How about something a little more bare boned?

What I would like to see is a simple fixed lens (40mm), non zoom camera with manual focus, aperture and shutter speed settings. All with a range finder and a simple match needle ttl metering system.

No need for a 2.5 inch review screen. 1.5 will do. CF card compatibility and USB 2.0 are also desired. 7 megapixels will work for me too. Oh and while I'm having this little fantasy - camera raw is a must. Good glass will also be necessary.

Can this be made for less than the cost of Canon 350D or a Nikon d70? I don't know.

Would it sell in sufficient number to be considered something other than a cult item? I don't believe it would.

Maybe we should look into camera hacking. Hmmmmm... where's my Canon G2.
 
Here's an idea. A digital RF with all the same controls as a film RF including the film advance lever. Only on the DRF the film advance powers a piezo electric system, or micro kinetic generator (or similar) which creates enough power to take each shot. A battery-less DRF.
 
Andy K said:
Here's an idea. A digital RF with all the same controls as a film RF including the film advance lever. Only on the DRF the film advance powers a piezo electric system, or micro kinetic generator (or similar) which creates enough power to take each shot. A battery-less DRF.
While we're jammin' on this theme, how about having a kinetic generator driven by motion like a kinetic wrist watch.

Drop the viewing screen altogether to save power and to eliminate chimping. Then brand it as the "Green Shooter." Oh - wait, that might suggest assination of "Greens." I'll have to think about that name a little more.
 
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Surely their must be a way to mount m-series lenses to a digital p+s body. Does it even need a rangefinder? A focus confirmation light in an optical viewfinder could do the job -this would make the whole thing a a lot cheaper to design and then we might even see one in the real world (you know the place where you use cameras instead of talking about them)
 
Andy K said:
I find this comment a thousand times more inflammatory and divisive than the OP (which made sound and well reasoned arguments). After some time considering the pros and cons of making a contribution, that comment has made me decide I will NOT contribute money to this site, because I do not want to be part of a two tier I-have-more-say-than-you-because-I-paid site.

That would be my stance too. To Kev T a warm welcome.

Nikon Bob
 
One of the reason's I like the idea of a rangefinder is that I don't care much for how auto focus works on nearly all digital cameras. It ads time to taking the shot (high end cameras tend to overcome this) and often it isn't what I would have chosen as a point of focus.
 
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Thanks Inaki

Thanks Inaki

iñaki said:
Welcome Kev, I found your post very interesting: I don´t know if you are right or not, but I enjoyed reading it (being difficult for me to read in english), I hope you will stay with us.

Hello Inaki,

I was talking about my wish that more camera manufacturers would make digital RF cameras, so that us consumers have more choices, if we decide to buy RF cameras.

I'm sorry it took such a long post to make such a simple message! Whether we're professional photographers or hobbyists, the camera is the tool of the trade or the toy of the hobby! So we (I) tend to talk too much about our tools and most certainly our toys! 😀

The ideas of the imaginary cameras I wrote about are exactly just that; Ideas & imagination... no right or wrongs about it.

If however, say CV really does decide to make a digital RF camera under the Voigtlander brand name one day, won't we all be excited and happy?

Regards,
Kev
 
Kev T said:
If however, say CV really does decide to make a digital RF camera under the Voigtlander brand name one day, won't we all be excited and happy?

Not all of us. Speaking for myself I have zero interest in digital cameras in any way, shape or form. (until they don't need batteries and give me a roll of negatives every 36 shots or so 😉 )
 
Andy K said:
Not all of us. Speaking for myself I have zero interest in digital cameras in any way, shape or form. (until they don't need batteries and give me a roll of negatives every 36 shots or so 😉 )

As we all know, Andy does not believe in batteries. That is why his car still has a crank start! 😀
 
copake_ham said:
As we all know, Andy does not believe in batteries. That is why his car still has a crank start! 😀


Wow, if that was meant honestly this is just uncalled for.
I personally don't like batteries in my cameras, either. Granted, I do have a 20D, but prefer not to use it if I do not need to, and this is mainly because I need to recharge it every ~900 shots.
 
copake_ham said:
As we all know, Andy does not believe in batteries. That is why his car still has a crank start! 😀

When I saw the Digital M thread, I was thinking of suggesting a crank start. Plus, you should have to remove the whole bottom of the camera to get at the memory card.
 
Good analysis Willie

Good analysis Willie

willie_901 said:
Since Kev T asked for comments on his inaugural post and I will oblige. Thanks for taking the time, I'm much obliged.

Premise 2 - with few exceptions, digital camera sensors are incompatible aesthetically with existing 35 mm format lenses. Whether or not technical incompatibilities exist is highly dependent on the lens, the digital sensor and the how the original analog signal (photons) is modified (filtered) by the camera hardware and software during analog-to-digital conversion. In the context of Kev T's post, I choose to assume there are no technical issues when lenses designed for 35 mm film are used with digital cameras.
As my camera is the Kodak SLR/n, I have a little experience with using 35mm lenses with its full 35mm format frame sensor... The main problem is wide-angle lenses (both primes & zooms) at the outer edge of the image frame... depending on the particular lens, softness or vignette, or even a combination of both... but this is not new, and occurs even with cropped frame sensors.

Kev T's proposal is flawed for in two ways. These flaws are exist because his ideas are ahead of their time.
Wow! I've called many things in my live, but never been accused of being forward looking! 😛

Because a technically competent, affordable 24 x 36 mm sensor is not available... Kodak currently makes such an Interline CCD sensor with 11Mp, Dalsa likewise also have an 11Mp 'True Frame' CCD, and of course Fill Fcatory of Belgium made the 14Mp Cmos for Kodak's ill-fated SLR/n. One must find a new favorite lens or change how they compose their photographs. I am more interested in using the lenses I now own and enjoy rather than adopting to a different format. The reason why I chose the Kodak SLR/n despite having to work harder during post.

Replacing the reflex finder from a high-quality DSLR with a Leica or Zeiss Icon - like rangefinder would be welcomed by RF photographers, but a this would not make the camera significantly lighter or less expensive. But i did not mention price points in my post, except maybe mentioning that I think the Epson was overpriced. The Nikon D200 body (I am not familiar with other DSLRs) is an example of a digital camera constructed to provide a long productive life span. Adapting Nikon's S3 rangefinder to a D200 platform will not decrease cost. Putting an analog-to-digital converter in a S3 body will not be cheap. Advanced engineering, high quality components and manufacturing excellence is expensive. I think Kev T's statement suggestion that a digital S3 "has the potential to sell by the millions..." is unrealistic. You're probably right, that dS3s won't fly out the window sale-wise, but I still think it is a viable business idea for Nikon to consider, especially if they are willing to take it beyond the low production item that it is now positioned in their minds. imagine the gleeful Nikon marketing exec pull one these out of his bag to a Canon marketing exec, " Hey you don't have one of these, do you?" 😀

But I see no point in using the existing sensor technologies (Canon's 24 X 36 mm sensor excluded of course) in a M-type RF camera. See my above reply on the various sensors made by Kodak, Dalsa, and Fill-Factory/Cypress... Also Sony is rumored to have a FF sensor waiting for the right platform. In their own Alpha DSLRs perhaps?

Nikon and Canon (and others) benefit when consumers acquire new lenses for a new format. They reward their shareholders when photographers buy a new camera body every two or three years. At the same time, there are a lot of high quality 35 mm format lenses in the world. A decade from now a 35 mm format analog-to-digital converter will be a practical alternate to film. Someone will sell a RF camera much like Kev T describes because the lenses exist and a profit can be made.

I welcome Kev T to RFF and applaud him for being ahead of the times. Someday light digitization will be completely compatible with the 35 mm lenses we RFFers love. Someday a digital finder will be superior in every way to optical finders. Until then film RF cameras will be be used by those who enjoy them for what they do and how they do it.
Thank you kindly Willie, and in keeping with being ahaed of my time, I'd speculate that new sensors based on nanotechology which does not involve capturing light photons is the key to the future...

Cordially,
Kev
 
On the issue of changing focal length of lenses with digital, I went from Nikon 35mm film to the 1.5 Nikon digital sensor without noticing. Maybe I'm not fussy enoough, or perhaps it was that I used zoom lenses more than primes, and so never really had a "favorite" precise focal length. In any case, I think most people with adapt quickly and easily to the 1.33 Leica digital. So 35 becomes a 47, but to tell you the truth, I'm not sure I'd notice the difference between a 47 and a 50. I'm sure some would.

I doubt that any high-end rangefinder would sell in the millions. There's a reason reflexes are more popular -- they're more flexible. You're not going to use a rangefinder to take pictures of insects or wildlife. And truth be told, the digital photographs from a Nikon or a Canon are very, very good. They may not have some qualities of a film Leica, but a film Leica doesn't have some qualities of a digital Nikon.

Rangefinder people like rangefinders because of the way they shoot (and some like them because they like high-precision, machinery.) I think there's probably room for one or possibly two high-end rangefinders. There will also be space for P&S, and the top range of those cameras may function quite a bit like rangefinders -- but will never be as fast to use because of marketing and engineering considerations. Again, rangefinders IMHO are not really defined by the rangefinder in them, but by their use; the rangefinder is there because of usage requirements, not the other way around.

JC
 
copake_ham said:
As we all know, Andy does not believe in batteries. That is why his car still has a crank start! 😀

Actually I do believe in batteries, just not in cameras. If the battery in my car dies I can (and have) push start it and still get where I am going. If a battery in a battery dependent camera dies, the camera becomes a paperweight. So it would make sense for a digital camera to be battery free, the technology to build such a thing has been available for a long time.
 
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