Digital rangefinder cameras please?

[rvaubel]

The problem with the Oly 330 is the mirror box. Its even MORE complex than a traditional SLR. I want a simple camera.
The traditional rangefinder mechinism is an incredibly complex device. Its got mirrors, prisms lens, windows, cams, levels, masks, the list goes on and on. On the M2 their are five different things to get out of adjustment. However, I still prefer it to the reflex concept, at least for normal uses. I would prefer a electronic finder if it would have the same or better resolution of an optic viewfinder. I hate the current EVFs. Before I would consider one to replace the optical alternative, it would have to have a resolution at least on order of magnitude better than current offerings. Such a thing will be possible someday. At that time both the rangefinder AND the reflex based SLR will be obsolete.
Meanwhile, I'm going to go take a few pictures with my R-D1.
Rex

 

[rvaubel]

Doug
Yes, it is possible. Not yet but soon.
Rex

 

[Kev T]

One problem with the EVF or other live preview is that the shutter would have to be open... or deleted in favor of capturing some chosen instant of sensor output. But while that's done with the tiny p&s sensors, is it practical with a larger APS-size sensor?

Hi Doug,

The technology seen in today's shutterless P & S cameras was first developed from video camera technology... Specifically, broadcast grade videocams used by the networks, etc.

True the sensors in broadcast videocams are only 2/3" and far smaller than the average APS sized sensor found in today's DSLRs or the lone RD-1. However, the technology exist today, and it is a matter of time before a forward looking camera manufacturer who takes that technology and apply it to the larger imaging sensors found in digital stills cameras.

It is fair comment that what is considered state of art in imaging sensor technology found in the latest DSLRs is yesterday's news for the broadcast and digital motion-picture cameras market.

Simply because the leading manufacturers of digital imaging capture sensor devices such as Sony & Panasonic are themselves manufacturers of the pro grade videocams.

Should a compact (say 3" diagonal) display device with sufficiently high res of about 2Mp upwards become commercially available, then we can afford to do away with the mirrors, prisms, etc that we need in current cameras.

Then we come back to an almost non mechnical, elegantly simple camera box housing the sensor and associated electronics and the lens only... Plus no more inferior retrofocus lenses to accomodate the reflex mirror assembly of the camera body.

A camera body that is designed with focus on imaging quality only, without other considerations, and with cost savings from eliminating reflex mirrors, prisms, ground-glass screens, shutter units, etc. In fact, much fewer things to break or repair.

My 2 cents worth on the evolution of high performance digital cameras. 😀

Regards,
Kev

 

[rvaubel]

Kev T
Very interesting about the difference in the sensors between the Point n' shoot and the DSLRs. Although I'v gotten pretty good over the last 50 years judging framelines and merging rangefinder images, there has to be a better, simplier way. The R-D1 is a lot of fun, but the rangefinder, as usual, is the weak link.
What I don't understand is why my Canon 20Da (astro model) allows me to live view thru the sensor. I must be the same CMOS that is in the 20D. Yet when I lock up the mirror and activate the live sensor feature and open the shutter, I am looking right thru the lens via the LCD on the camera. I can manually focus, change the f# or ISO and watch the results, live . Just like a manual point in shoot (if such a thing existed). I'm not making this up. I have this camera.
During this whole thread, I've mentioned this as an example of something that I want in a camera. It actually works on the Canon but is to combersome for day to day use. Its meant for focusing in astrophotography. But it is so tantalisingly close to what Kev described that I must be missing something.
Now someone is going to tell my that optical rangefinder devices where ordained by God to be perfect and I should be burned at the stake for my heresy.
Well, it is the RangefinderForum I quess.
.....sorry...

Rex

 

[Kev T]

Hi Rex,

Well, I started this thread, and therefore should be the first to be flammed! 😀

Gosh! I envy you for the 20Da, which 'scope do you use it with?

In reply, yes, I've experienced digital direct view with all manual exposure controls on an old Minolta 7Hi (this model preceded the A-1 and A-2) but with the same form factor. I use this old camera for location scouting these days...

So anyone who has the K-M A-2 or any competing cameras, such Oly 8080, Nikon 5800, Canon IS 2, etc. can set their cameras to manual mode and see the LCD darken or lighten as they change shutter speeds or aperture.

All the above cameras share the same 2/3" 8Mp Interline CCD sensor with the Sony F828 which I missed form the above line-up, and none of them have an actual shutter in the camera, just the global shutter function built-in with the sensor.

As mentioned, in an earlier reply, it is possible for Cmos sensors to have this global shuttering function built into their pixel architecture as well...

So I do emphatically agree with you that what I want in a future camera is a box with an ergonomic handle and just the lens mount at the front, controls with perhaps another small status LCD on top, and the large hi-res 3"live view display at the back.

Sort of like a scaled down Linhof 6 x 9 Technik or Koni-Omega, but without the bellow... Actually that's ok too for studio & architectural / landscape work!

What do you think?

Kev

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Now someone is going to tell my that optical rangefinder devices where ordained by God to be perfect and I should be burned at the stake for my heresy.

"BURN THE MONSTER! BURN HIM"

Ahem... sorry, now that I've composed myself, God uses a point and shoot, She doesn't need to focus, She's God.

 

[rvaubel]

Yes but, what would Jesus shoot... a point n' shoot or a Leica?
Rex

 

[Kev T]

Rex,

The last sentence in my reply above also points the way for any small camera manufacturer to develop their future digital cameras. Of this I'm convinced...

For far too long, large corporations controls what we can get in our cameras, and they've basically steamrolled smaller weaker companies to the ground. Actually even large corporations that cannot compete... Eg. Konica-Minolta and most recently Mamiya.

But my proposal of a basic direct view digital camera can be made by any small manufacturer with far lesser R&D budgets, and much lesser dependence upon 3rd party suppliers.

Lens designers are now unhindered by having to design around reflex viewing systems, and thus can give us superior optics... The example from the recent Sony R1 is proof of the concept , with its sub-APS Cmos sensor and CZ Vario-Sonnar lens.

Just more refinement in that direction with better materials for the basic camera body to stand up to professional use/abuse.

Kev

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Yes but, what would Jesus shoot... a point n' shoot or a Leica?
Rex

Please... he would use a Holga, especially after turning over the carts of the merchants at temple.

 

[sychan]

Yes but, what would Jesus shoot... a point n' shoot or a Leica?
Rex

Ummm, probably whatever the poor and humble would shoot, because the joy of photography is for everyone, not just the rich and righteous... 😛

Kodak disposables?

 

[rvaubel]

Watch it Sychan
"the rich and the righteous" is WHO Jesus would shoot in our home town.
Rex

 

[Andy K]

Yes but, what would Jesus shoot... a point n' shoot or a Leica?
Rex

These days? Probably a Smith & Wesson.

 

[sychan]

Watch it Sychan
"the rich and the righteous" is WHO Jesus would shoot in our home town.
Rex

Nah, even in Berkeley, the song remains the same...

 

[RJBender]

I always thought it would be fun to own a Pinzgauer:

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

There are 18 hours left to bid:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4636844074

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

I wonder if Kodak has any overstock of their 14MP sensor upgrade kits for upgrading the Kodak DCS 14n to the 14nx? Hopefully Leica will have a policy like Kodak of offering an upgrade path for their customers on the cameras.
For what it is worth, I think the "live view" sensors such as on the upcoming Panasonic DMC L1 and the current Sony R1 will make most of the benefits of rangefinders over SLR's obsolete. A focus confirmation indicator will compensate for any remaining benefits the split view RF may have over through the lens focusing.

Just come up with something that takes M mount lenses, has a tilt LCD display and a really high quality EVF with live view and focus confirmation. All the necessary technology is actually there already, when you consider that the Sony R1 has all the necessary electronics - it just lacks an M-mount and compactness.

Do you have a link to the Huw Finney project that you mentioned in another thread?

Huw Finney is retrofitting a 10mp sensor into a Leica M body - no bayer filter, so should be all monochrome. Should have higher resolution as well, since it doesn't need interpolation.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=262866&postcount=12

R.J.

 

[Kev T]

Yeah, would be nice to get that link to his retrofit project... Which 10Mp sensor is he using, the Kodak KAF 10000 (as found in the DMR) or the Sony (installed by Nikon in the D200)?

Kev

 

[Kev T]

BTW, Kodak is sold out on the 14n sensor upgrade to 14nx... The only stocks they've left are the service stocks, as they're commited to support SLR/n and SLR/c till end of 2008.

Kev

 

[rvaubel]

Bill
Is that the Kodak sensor with the sissy autotransmission or the manly manual transmission?
How would Jesus shift?
Rex

 

[sychan]

I'll try to find a link to Huy Finney's project once I can connect to photo.net again, it seems to be kind of flaky right now (at least from my connection). You can Google for "huw finney m2ad" and see what comes up.

I wonder what emulsion a Bayerless monochrome sensor most resembles? 🙂

 

[RJBender]

I'll try to find a link to Huy Finney's project once I can connect to photo.net again, it seems to be kind of flaky right now (at least from my connection). You can Google for "huw finney m2ad" and see what comes up.

I wonder what emulsion a Bayerless monochrome sensor most resembles? 🙂

Here's the link. http://www.huws.org.uk/

R.J.