Does an extreme focus on craft lead to a loss of artistic value ?

[bmattock]

Bill, can I borrow this from you?

I am flattered, sir - of course you may.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[jaapv]

Is [the original] post maybe slightly inspired by the advent of digital photography? It is now possible to get "technically perfect", at any rate very slick photographs using high-end digital camera's and understanding post-processing. In the days before we needed pretty elaborate darkroom techniques, especially for colour and the very best was only for great photographers like Ansel Adams. Nowadays anybody can buy a DMR or 1DsmkII, (at least, if they can or want to afford it), spend a year studying Photoshop and get an image that is technically impeccable, but sadly lacking in artistic quality. This results in equipement fetishism and posts like "is my lens sharper that yours" or "this camera is s**t because it is noisy at 6400 ISO" etc, completely losing track of the fact that it is not the technique, but the end-result that should be judged. For myself the return of the darkroom in the shape of the computer has shown me how much I still have to learn about taking a photograph.

 

[bmattock]

It's true. But this truth does not help to understand foreign cultures.

All cultures are foreign. Including the one I live in, and the one I made up just now. When you begin to understand that you are alien to everyone in the world, just as they are alien to you, and yet at the same time, you partake of the interwovenness of humanity and are fully engaged and enmeshed therein no matter how alien you are, you begin to understand photography. Or you go live in a tarpaper shack in Montana. Opinions vary.

"Communication is only possible between equals." - Hagbard Celine

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Bertram2]

my point is, that you don't really HAVE to fully understand something ........... -, you just have to get a feeling of it, in order to enjoy it and/or use it.
.

Not to understand but having a feeling anyway is living on an assuption , when it comes to foreign cultures
For me not possible. As long as I haven't understood it i could have the wrong feeling of it. For me it's the other way round, understanding leads me into the emotions.

But I think we got too philosophical for the original question, which was quite trivial, concerning "human aberrations" only 😀

Regards
bertram

 

[Bertram2]

Is [the original] post maybe slightly inspired by the advent of digital photography? I.

No, not at all !! I'd prefer to keep THIS issue outta here, really !
It was more about people lose their aims !!
bertram

 

[Pherdinand]

Bertram, i refer more to the fact that, what is expressed in japanese e.g. by the word "bokeh" does not directly have an english correspondence, and even if we invent one single word for it, it is not necessarily exactly mean the same. However as long as we have a feeling about what "bokeh" means, even if we don't understand the word accurately or cannot define exactly, we can use it. But that' sonly my oppinion of course and I can see if someone based on his own standards finds this too vague.

 

[djon]

Japanese perfection: Chi Chi means both "father" and "breasts" ....read that somewhere.

 

[Kin Lau]

"Without the right standpoint it is all nothing !" = Ansel Adams ! 😀

Some of those I mentioned, claiming AA had been an "artisan only" were not able to achieve comparable results even if if the'd keep on trainin' themselves for the next 300 years.

And IMHO they have overseen completely how much this man loved the beauty of nature and how much of this emotion is in his phtography. His photos are NOT boring for me, at least the very most.

Regards,
Bertram

I love AA's work. It's almost the total opposite of most RF work, and it takes a completely different mindset to appreciate it. Having visited Yosemite park, I can see why he refers to these scenes as "spiritual".

The more I learn about b&w, printing and darkroom work, the more I appreciate what AA's done. Learning to shoot with a 4x5 gives me a lot more respect for shooting with a 8x10.

 

[Pherdinand]

Chi Chi is also a cocktail based on coconut milk and pineapple (i think) 😀

 

[kmack]

The world is a blurry place. Parts don't fit, screws fall out. Entropy everywhere tending towards maximum. That's why there is beer.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

With all due respect, forstalling entropy is why there is duct tape. Beer is simply the basis of all civilization.

 

[bmattock]

With all due respect, forstalling entropy is why there is duct tape. Beer is simply the basis of all civilization.

I agree. But forestalling entropy is a useless activity. Beer is the human way of embracing the horror and the darkness beyond.

The day they detect the asteroid that will hit the earth and send us the way of the dinosaurs, how many will reach for their trusty duct tape, and how many will reach for another beer and look for a good place to put their tripod?

Tri-X and a Guinness, it's the end of the world, baby.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Ukko Heikkinen]

Good evening, everybody

"At least one writer, Leonard B. Meyer, had treated the admiration of technique as a contingent cultural construct - as though we could envision a culture where practiced skill was not admired. This seemed implausible. The admiration of high technique, of feats of virtuosity, is a cross-cultural, universal value. It infects not only the arts, but potentially all human activity, e.g., sporting activities everywhere. "

But, please, read the whole article, it is worth it if your are interested in artistic values:

http://denisdutton.com/rio.htm

Regards

Ukko Heikkinen

 

[Bertram2]

Bertram, i refer more to the fact that, what is expressed in japanese e.g. by the word "bokeh" does not directly have an english correspondence, .

I see. I was more referring to wasi-basi tho . 🙂 The "bokeh thing is easier because you can visualize it with picture examples, and everybody can get a quite clear imagination of what is meant Tho the word itself must stay blurry in all kinds of translation OOF deatil is adequate to make it understandable IMO.

What I read about the "wasi-basi" thing let's me assume more room for misunderstandings or misinterpretations. It describes a whole different universe of beauty and harmony, a system and it's rules and laws , comparable to the classic ancient greek esthetic system. The human beeing in his natural context and things like that.
I would not use this term without knowing EXACTLY what it really means.

Best,
bertram

 

[Bertram2]

A must read article:
http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/Pontification/o_Boring_Photographs/a_Boring_Photographs.html

I read more of it, also "Boredom and more cameras" and I find it is a really brilliant essay, the best article I ever readabout this issue, unmasking and devastating too, like pure acid, this guy is as precisely as a pyschiatrist !! 😀 😀
What I find awise strategy is that he does not exclude himself. 😉
Regards,
bertram

 

[StuartR]

At the risk of derailing the discussion (a risk I am willing to take), I would say that any concept created by any culture can be completely understood by anyone from another culture as long as they make an effort. The reason for this is quite simple -- all culture is learned or acquired knowledge and behaviour. Ever meet a person of Japanese descent from California? They are more American in speech and mannerisms than any Western European person who moved there after they were an adult.

My own experience tells me that differences between cultures are real, but easily overcome with even the slightest effort to understand and the tools by which to be enlightened (friends who know, books, even personal experience). I am American, born in New Zealand, and have lived 14 months in Russia and 6 months in Japan in addition to shorter stays in many other countries. Everybody's pretty much the same and we should embrace whatever concepts we are attracted to. And to bring it full circle, embracing different cultures and concepts can only improve ones photography.

 

[rbiemer]

Beer is simply the basis of all civilization.

And what a mixed blessing that has turned out to be. 😀
More to the original question, In my photography I've tried to learn the technical stuff so I don't have to think about it while I'm taking pictures. Somewhat equivalent to the kinds of practice musicians do not to learn a particular song but to imprint/reinforce "muscle memory". My best work has been done when I'm not thinking about the gear but the image. Which is why I really am streamlining my equipment. I've got what I expect will be a sufficient set of lenses and cameras and while I know I will buy more stuff those purchases won't improve my pictures. They may make some things easier and I hope they give me simple pleasure in the "hunt" and their mechanical aesthetic.
OK, time for a beer.
Rob

 

[RJBender]

With all due respect, forstalling entropy is why there is duct tape. Beer is simply the basis of all civilization.

That sounds like a great idea for a reality TV show. The contestants get drunk on beer and try to fix broken stuff with duct tape! 😛

R.J.

 

[Pherdinand]

Well, so far my idea about wasi-basi is reduced to wasabi it's a weird association but isn't the appearance the most important at a first encounter? 😀

 

[Bertram2]

Well, so far my idea about wasi-basi is reduced to wasabi it's a weird association but isn't the appearance the most important at a first encounter? 😀

Dunnowhy but somehow wasabi was in my mind too since a while, how come??!! 😉

"What shall we use to fill the empty spaces ? "

Neither wasi-basi nor wasabi . I'd suggest something from the western classical philosophy: Gnothi Sauton ! = "Recognize yourself" or "Know who you are".
This always helps. Together with beer only tho, I admit !!! 😀 😀 😀

Best,
bertram

 

[ErnestoJL]

I found also that the less I´m concerned with gear, the best pictures I get. No matter how good the equipment can be, it´s not better than your skills, or whatever is the name of it.
I found this about 25 y. before after some time shooting with my Kiev. At that time I was shooting only with SLRs, thinking that quality /sophisticated gear should be a great help to improve. I was wrong.
However I found a great tool to improve, and it´s not duct tape nor beer. It´s a simple glass of good red wine.

That late friend I had, said once "pictures are over there, use your eyes to isolate them and your fingers and camera to capture it forever".

Well... I´m trying.

Ernesto