Does an extreme focus on craft lead to a loss of artistic value ?

[Andy K]

Alberto Korda said: "Forget the camera, forget the lens, forget all of that. With any four-dollar camera, you can capture the best picture."

It's good advice, even if his most famous photograph was taken with a Leica and 90mm lens!

 

[Pherdinand]

I don't really think that's good advice Andy, exactly for the reason you pioint out at the end.
It's easy to say such things if:
-you are a talented and/or famous photographer
-your most famous shots are taken with Leicas, Hasselblads, large-format equipment.

When you are average and/of beginner, a four-dollar camera won't help you much, maybe even will pull you back. Unless it's a four-dollar classic camera from a lucky garage sale or such.

 

[bmattock]

I don't really think that's good advice Andy, exactly for the reason you pioint out at the end.
It's easy to say such things if:
-you are a talented and/or famous photographer
-your most famous shots are taken with Leicas, Hasselblads, large-format equipment.

When you are average and/of beginner, a four-dollar camera won't help you much, maybe even will pull you back. Unless it's a four-dollar classic camera from a lucky garage sale or such.

I agree with you. When you are famous, your out-of-focus photos are your 'trademark style'. When you're not famous, your out-of-focus photos are 'crap'.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[RJBender]

We go online and discuss our gear. That gives us recognition without all the hard work required to make a good photograph. Does that sound like people who use duct tape to fix everything? 😛

R.J.

 

[Toby]

Alberto Korda said: "Forget the camera, forget the lens, forget all of that. With any four-dollar camera, you can capture the best picture."

It's good advice, even if his most famous photograph was taken with a Leica and 90mm lens!

I think the point is not to be obsessed with flashy equipment or for that matter to be creatively crippled by a obseesion with 'good technique' (whatever that is). Visualisation is the key to great photography, you have to know what you want, if you can't visualise the images that you want, all the equipment and all the technical skill in the world won't help you.

And anyway $4 was a lot of money in those days 😉

 

[RJBender]

I agree with you. When you are famous, your out-of-focus photos are your 'trademark style'. When you're not famous, your out-of-focus photos are 'crap'.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Photos always look better when they are published in a magazine. If they were not good, they would not have been published! 😕

R.J.

 

[Bertram2]

I found also that the less I´m concerned with gear, the best pictures I get. No matter how good the equipment can be, it´s not better than your skills, or whatever is the name of it.
I found this about 25 y.
Ernesto

Ernesto ,
contributing to pushing my own thread more off rail towards the moldy old gear question I'd like to add a quote of Petteri Sulonen, which describes the mechnism of GAS so perfectly:

The nasty thing about buying more cameras (or lenses, or lights, or whatever) is that it works. In the short term, anyway. When you buy a new toy, you play with it. As you play with it, you go out and shoot pictures. Since it's different than your old toys, you do things differently, and get some stuff that doesn't leave you feeling all empty inside.

I think it's a question of time only and you get that fed up one day and begin to streamline your equipment. After a while you see it has lead you nowhere but caused a considerable loss of capital which you could have invested in expensive wine better , to stay at your personal source of inspiration. 🙂

Gear is just one "aberration", same as the exaggerated concentration chemistry and darkroom work is. It's the vison only which an drives us forward to new , to better results, THAT's the truth, isn 't it ? And the truth is in the wine as we all know. 😉

In vino veritas !
Cheers,
bertram
P.S.:
Beer works too, isn't so spiritual tho. Maybe it would be wise to invest in a 98 or 99 Bordeaux Grand Cru first , to drink ,to think and to decide then first if the switch to MF is really "necessary" for me ? 😀

 

[Pherdinand]

By the way, duct tape, especially double-sided, is a God's blessing. We use it on a daily basis in our high-tech laser laboratories😀 seriously!

 

[Andy K]

I don't really think that's good advice Andy, exactly for the reason you pioint out at the end.
It's easy to say such things if:
-you are a talented and/or famous photographer
-your most famous shots are taken with Leicas, Hasselblads, large-format equipment.

When you are average and/of beginner, a four-dollar camera won't help you much, maybe even will pull you back. Unless it's a four-dollar classic camera from a lucky garage sale or such.

I think the point Korda was making was that spending big bucks on top kit will not make a person a good photographer and neither will it guarantee good results. We see it all the time, people seeing a great photograph made by someone using the latest £2000 camera and then saying 'Wow! I have to get one of those cameras!'
A good photographer will make good photographs with a dirt cheap disposable camera just as easily as they will make a good photograph with an expensive high end camera.

 

[Kin Lau]

I think the point Korda was making was that spending big bucks on top kit will not make a person a good photographer and neither will it guarantee good results. We see it all the time, people seeing a great photograph made by someone using the latest £2000 camera and then saying 'Wow! I have to get one of those cameras!'
A good photographer will make good photographs with a dirt cheap disposable camera just as easily as they will make a good photograph with an expensive high end camera.

A good image is a good image... I think we all recognize that.

The problem many will have with his statement, is that it only reflects his frame of mind and viewpoint, and there are just too many exceptions to that rule. Quotes like that really need to be taken in context, and without providing it, more questions are raised than answered.

 

[Pherdinand]

Xactly, Kin.

 

[Bertram2]

and there are just too many exceptions to that rule. Quotes like that really need to be taken in context, and without providing it, more questions are raised than answered.

Agreed with 100%. A statement like this is true and nontheless not helpful in any way, if it comes to cameras. The stupid question it must provoke is" why does he buy all this expensive stuff then ? " Generalizations are popular because they are simple, but life is not THAT simple.
If at all this quote shall have any relation to reality then one had to add
"within the technical limits the 4-Dollar camera grants, related to the following definition of "good" :.whateveritcouldbe.. 😀

Regards,
Bertram

 

[Andy K]

Btw, this is the photograph that made Korda famous. Interestingly initially it was only in a local newspaper. Then the sixties youth got hold of it, and the rest is history.
I still think he could have made the same photograph with a Soviet rf like a Zorki or FED, Korda just happened to be using a Leica. He certainly wasn't trying to make a 'great' world-changing photograph.

 

[fraley]

I read the beginning of this thread, hope you don't mnd me jumping in now. Please consider the case of David Lance Goines. He is on the face of it a master craftsman. He's an excellent graphic arts printer -- lithography. By applying himself to the craft, he has created a body of work that rises to the level of art. Sometimes the categories of craftsman vs artist become unimportant. It's what you put into the work that matters.

 

[Kin Lau]

Btw, this is the photograph that made Korda famous. Interestingly initially it was only in a local newspaper. Then the sixties youth got hold of it, and the rest is history.
I still think he could have made the same photograph with a Soviet rf like a Zorki or FED, Korda just happened to be using a Leica. He certainly wasn't trying to make a 'great' world-changing photograph.

What Korda said is probably true at least 50% of the time. I'm sure many photo-journalists in Eastern-Bloc countries used Zorki's, Fed's & Kiev's for great work. My I-22 is sharper than my 50 Elmar. I'm also not sure I'd call a good FSU RF a "$4- camera" tho.

The problem comes from the major limitations imposted by a scale/fixed/no focus viewfinder camera (that's what I think of when I see "$4- camera"). A throwaway could have taken that shot of "Che", if you were allowed to get in his face like that (looks like Korda did have the access) but not likely today. Stuff like low light shooting, selective focus and DOF would not be available.

 

[bluedust]

WOW

This is one deep thread. I started off as with a DSLR and I spent most of my time trying to take photos that would make others say wow. Now I realised that the more I take photos to please others the more empty I feel. But now I have a new question to ask my self; am I trying to be artistic or am I trying to get recognition for my technique? Deep down the answer probably is a bit of both.

I for one feel that this thread and all the articals attached to it has changed my view of photography. I say this because I have rated many photos as near perfect due to the fact it is technically difficult to do; but after reading this thread my feelings towards such photos have changed.

Am I the only who feels this way?

 

[RJBender]

Btw, this is the photograph that made Korda famous. Interestingly initially it was only in a local newspaper. Then the sixties youth got hold of it, and the rest is history.
I still think he could have made the same photograph with a Soviet rf like a Zorki or FED, Korda just happened to be using a Leica. He certainly wasn't trying to make a 'great' world-changing photograph.

So that's the story behind that image. I'd like to know what event was taking place at the time the photo was taken. Is it my imagination or do I see some contempt in Che's expression? If it is contempt, is it contempt for the Leica, tool of the Bourgeoisie? Proletarians loved their Zorkis. Would Che have smiled if Korda had used a Zorki instead of a Leica? 😕

Back to the rails of the thread.... a craft requires tools. Skilled craftsmen can do wonders with primitive tools. People who possess the most expensive tools are not necessarily the best craftsmen. Some just like to collect tools. Is there an art to collecting tools other than using one's negotiating skills to get the best tools at the lowest price? If one sacrificies his integrity to get the most tools for the least amount of cash, what does that do to one's ability to express one's self through photography?

Extreme focus on craft may be necessary at times. Managing all the details to get the shot envisioned in your head might require total concentration on craft.


R..J.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Ernesto, that' interesting... I've heard many guitarists playing that Rodrigo piece, but the most i've liked is the one recorded by Narciso Yepes, well ahead of Paco de Lucia e.g.. I did not notice any of these "imperfections" (i am no connaisseur of classic guitar playing, btw) but it just sounds perfect to me.

The one by Narciso Yepes is, to me, the gold standard performance of that piece; hard to beat. Most anything else I've heard is either too "technically proficient" but lacking in understanding of what certain passages ought to mean, or others where they overemphasize certain phrases just because it wants to be "different".

Funny how photography can be that way too...

 

[Bertram2]

WOW
....... and I spent most of my time trying to take photos that would make others say wow. Now I realised that the more I take photos to please others the more empty I feel.
Am I the only who feels this way?

The origin of the thread was the question if one can lose the own original intentions by trying to produce pics only which are as perfect as possible, technically.
The assumed intention was to (vis)ualize emot(ions ) = deal with visions !

If you produce pics , from what reason ever, to make others say "WOW!!" this proves you are going the wrong direction, leaving your visions behind.
The terrible thing is that at the beginning of the learning curve you simply need a positive confirmation for your efforts, but after a while you cannot say waht your intentions really are. Applause or doing something for yourself ?
My wife (she is wiser than me when it comes to emotions) asked me sometimes times: "Did you make that for the gallery or for sourself ?"
Good question, blew me away !! Embarrassing tho often my honest answer was 😉

An amateur has a precious privilege , he must not sell his work, he must not care what other people like, and so the amateurs should not give away this privilege for a bit of applause.

What does explicitely does NOT mean shoot crap and say it's "art" !! 😀

Regards,
bertram

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

The term is 'wabi-sabi'

OT, but, does this have any relation to wasabi? I always give it to my girlfriend; they serve copious amounts of it. One of the few things I have not liked over the years after various attempts of reapproaching it.