Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
bmattock said:
Thanks, what a release!! I don't want to be less generous: I promise to stay outta yours too. Bye bye , Bill ! 😀
Does an extreme focus on craft lead to a loss of artistic value ?
- Thread starter Bertram2
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Thanks, what a release!! I don't want to be less generous: I promise to stay outta yours too. Bye bye , Bill ! 😀
bmattock
Veteran
gabrielma said:
I would have missed it, I don't know the difference, but I'm sure it is worth knowing. I'm barely conversant with 12-bar blues and s-shaped chords on the guitar.
So if anyone says 'j'accuse' let them say it soto voce.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
ErnestoJL
Well-known
Gabriel: OT : The N. Yepes performance is in fact second to none, as it is spanish music, composed by a spaniard, an also played by a spaniard, with the Orquesta Nacional de España, conducted by Mr. Ataúlfo Argenta, another spaniard.... an unbeatable combination. The recording is from CBS Masterworks #5524 and dates from 1973.... and the imperfections are due to small bouncing of some srtring over the wrong fret.
This made the play perfect, as there was a lot of emotion and the presence of a human brain and fingers doing their best at all times ... with a ten string classic guitar.
I used this example to remark that sometimes a picture isn´t technically perfect, however, there are a lot of other parts which together make a perfect picture.
No doubt about if someone must know the tools he´s working with, but having the best tools in unapropriate hands doesn´t mean results will be perfect.
Bertram:
My answer is NO.
If I make pictures for the people and expect them to say WOW, what I´m doing is kind of pictures they like, not me.
If I make perfect prints of any neg, what I have is just a perfect print, something very different from a good print of a good "vision".
I´m an amateur, so I´m not selling my pictures, those pictures exist for my own pleasure and the pleasure of others too, but the rule is that those pictures I get should please me. Other´s opinion is sometimes important, but I´m making pictures not intended to be winners at any photo contest, so I´m not following judges preferences nor any other subtle (or not) limitation in regard of my "vision" of things.
What I´m currently doing and I think is the most important, is to have good tools, not necesarily the best (but the best I can get), and learn how to use them to get the most of it. IMO, this learning process is halfway done when anyone stops buying gear and starts buying film.
This made the play perfect, as there was a lot of emotion and the presence of a human brain and fingers doing their best at all times ... with a ten string classic guitar.
I used this example to remark that sometimes a picture isn´t technically perfect, however, there are a lot of other parts which together make a perfect picture.
No doubt about if someone must know the tools he´s working with, but having the best tools in unapropriate hands doesn´t mean results will be perfect.
Bertram:
My answer is NO.
If I make pictures for the people and expect them to say WOW, what I´m doing is kind of pictures they like, not me.
If I make perfect prints of any neg, what I have is just a perfect print, something very different from a good print of a good "vision".
I´m an amateur, so I´m not selling my pictures, those pictures exist for my own pleasure and the pleasure of others too, but the rule is that those pictures I get should please me. Other´s opinion is sometimes important, but I´m making pictures not intended to be winners at any photo contest, so I´m not following judges preferences nor any other subtle (or not) limitation in regard of my "vision" of things.
What I´m currently doing and I think is the most important, is to have good tools, not necesarily the best (but the best I can get), and learn how to use them to get the most of it. IMO, this learning process is halfway done when anyone stops buying gear and starts buying film.
pwnewport
portable image
Geez, now do I have to add a Travelall to my kit? Talk about a GAS attack.RJBender said:
Hangin' in,
Peter
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
John Robertson said:
James Mcintosh Patrick, R.S.A. (1907-1998)
Painter of Summer afternoon, Balshando
oil on canvas 21½ x 26 in. (54.6 x 66 cm.)
that sold for £14,400 ????
http://www.antiques-scotland.co.uk/images/Feb05/christies13_03_05mackintosh_patrick.jpg
Do you realize how much GEAR you can buy for £14,400? WOW!
😛 😀 😉 🙂
R.J.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
pwnewport said:
Yep. I don't see too many on the road today, though. You could probably use a pick up truck with a utility rack to build your deck. http://www.rackwarehouse.com/utility-rack-trucks.html
R.J.
R
RML
Guest
Bill does sometimes display very strong emotions, which sometimes gets in the way of the discussion. Betram is often very direct and outspoken in his opinions, which too can get in the way of the discussion. However, both seem to have valid points in this thread.
BUT, I have to agree with Bill on the wabi-sabi (sp?). As far as I understand it, it's one of the features (if you can say such a thing) of Zen. Let it come, let it flow. Things take effort but how much effort is just a matter of letting that effort come freely. It's not passive at all, it's active. It's conscious but not forced. By doing, practising and learning we become more profiscient and it comes more easily to us. By forcing ourselves to do better, we won't, as "better" can be defined in different ways. Force will only make us "better" in the "easy" parts and fields as force seeks the way of least resistance.
Is flower arranging easy? Yes, it is, and no, it's not. Try it yourself. Buy a bouquet and arrange it nicely in the vase. If you force yourself to make it nice, it never seems to be right. Put the flowers in as your senses, feelings and emotions guide you, and it all seems to work out fine. Odd indeed.
I can't properly explain the notion, even for myself, but I have a feeling for what it means. I know feelings and emotions are very much not-done in modern western society but I find that my feelings often are more to the point, more accurate and more productive than logic. It's not coincidental that managers nowadays are "taught" to follow their gut feeling, often resulting in better decisions than logic would dictate. In my photography it's the same, for weeks now I haven't been able to shoot much except shots of my girl at school outings and such (the equivalent of holiday snaps) but yesterday I felt good, calm and in the right mind, got off the tram and shot some 2 rolls worth. Why did it come out now? Because I didn't force it out, but when it came I made shot, I saw, I did. I put effort in the shooting but without rationalising my decisions, the camera settings or wishing for better light or better subjects. It all was there and came together in me and my camera.
As for the Greek theme of Gnothi Sauton, ancient Greek culture is as alien a culture to me as is Japanese culture! I was not born an ancient Greek, don't understand the notion properly, and have to guess its meaning. Wabi-sabi is as good a term for me as is Gnothi Sauton, perhaps even better as it is a contemporary notion which can be explained to me by living human beings in a language that I can properly understand and interpret.
OK. I'll stop rambling. Rereading my scribbling, even I can't make much sense of it. 😛
BUT, I have to agree with Bill on the wabi-sabi (sp?). As far as I understand it, it's one of the features (if you can say such a thing) of Zen. Let it come, let it flow. Things take effort but how much effort is just a matter of letting that effort come freely. It's not passive at all, it's active. It's conscious but not forced. By doing, practising and learning we become more profiscient and it comes more easily to us. By forcing ourselves to do better, we won't, as "better" can be defined in different ways. Force will only make us "better" in the "easy" parts and fields as force seeks the way of least resistance.
Is flower arranging easy? Yes, it is, and no, it's not. Try it yourself. Buy a bouquet and arrange it nicely in the vase. If you force yourself to make it nice, it never seems to be right. Put the flowers in as your senses, feelings and emotions guide you, and it all seems to work out fine. Odd indeed.
I can't properly explain the notion, even for myself, but I have a feeling for what it means. I know feelings and emotions are very much not-done in modern western society but I find that my feelings often are more to the point, more accurate and more productive than logic. It's not coincidental that managers nowadays are "taught" to follow their gut feeling, often resulting in better decisions than logic would dictate. In my photography it's the same, for weeks now I haven't been able to shoot much except shots of my girl at school outings and such (the equivalent of holiday snaps) but yesterday I felt good, calm and in the right mind, got off the tram and shot some 2 rolls worth. Why did it come out now? Because I didn't force it out, but when it came I made shot, I saw, I did. I put effort in the shooting but without rationalising my decisions, the camera settings or wishing for better light or better subjects. It all was there and came together in me and my camera.
As for the Greek theme of Gnothi Sauton, ancient Greek culture is as alien a culture to me as is Japanese culture! I was not born an ancient Greek, don't understand the notion properly, and have to guess its meaning. Wabi-sabi is as good a term for me as is Gnothi Sauton, perhaps even better as it is a contemporary notion which can be explained to me by living human beings in a language that I can properly understand and interpret.
OK. I'll stop rambling. Rereading my scribbling, even I can't make much sense of it. 😛
sf
Veteran
Craft before Art. . . or vice versa?
Craft before Art. . . or vice versa?
The trouble of finding the perfect relationship between viscera, mind and soul is the trouble with any art. Photography, music, sculpture, writing. . . they are all affected by the obsession with process. But, that affectation is dependent on a particular perception of art - that it only achieves its ultimate form when it has become by way of certain methods and through intense attention to detail, or more accurately, when the art is science or the end result of science.
But in my case, I'd say that the craft is a substitute for the art in certain circumstances.
I know that for me, the craft definitely affects my art in a bad way. My obsession with lens resolution, the perfect alignment of my lens and film planes, and negative size have been a hideous growth on my art for years, but I can't seem to shake it. Its grip strengthens daily.
I think that my appreciation of tonality and clarity is #1, even above the actual artistic value of the subject matter, a lot of the time. I mean, rather than seeing the subject on the groundglass or through the viewfinder, I see fuzzy or clear, composition, grains of glass. I view the art in small sections with a 15x loupe, paying more attention to the exact separation of details than to the life of the subject and the faithful capture of what inspired me to begin with.
At least, that is how it is when I go out to take pictures. When the camera and I are somewhere special at a specific moment, when things fall together by chance, art happens.
I think that the value of that realization is that I know I'm not an artist as I would like to be. I can't go out and produce art, I have to see it. I have the so called "eye" but no actual ability to conjur art from thin air. I am a voyeur with a camera and a sense of composition and beauty. So, naturally, I seek fulfillment in the process when I go out. It is all I have when the planned creation of "art" is on my mind. But when the moment happens, there is no time for process, only reaction. Those shots are the only ones I like. That is why I shoot portraits in a totally candid way without posing or lighting or anything. Because I can't come up with anything beautiful on my own, I just see it and there it is.
FOr some, Ansel Adamds for instance, craft and art are indivisible. The craft is art. There is the secret, making artful craft.
Craft before Art. . . or vice versa?
The trouble of finding the perfect relationship between viscera, mind and soul is the trouble with any art. Photography, music, sculpture, writing. . . they are all affected by the obsession with process. But, that affectation is dependent on a particular perception of art - that it only achieves its ultimate form when it has become by way of certain methods and through intense attention to detail, or more accurately, when the art is science or the end result of science.
But in my case, I'd say that the craft is a substitute for the art in certain circumstances.
I know that for me, the craft definitely affects my art in a bad way. My obsession with lens resolution, the perfect alignment of my lens and film planes, and negative size have been a hideous growth on my art for years, but I can't seem to shake it. Its grip strengthens daily.
I think that my appreciation of tonality and clarity is #1, even above the actual artistic value of the subject matter, a lot of the time. I mean, rather than seeing the subject on the groundglass or through the viewfinder, I see fuzzy or clear, composition, grains of glass. I view the art in small sections with a 15x loupe, paying more attention to the exact separation of details than to the life of the subject and the faithful capture of what inspired me to begin with.
At least, that is how it is when I go out to take pictures. When the camera and I are somewhere special at a specific moment, when things fall together by chance, art happens.
I think that the value of that realization is that I know I'm not an artist as I would like to be. I can't go out and produce art, I have to see it. I have the so called "eye" but no actual ability to conjur art from thin air. I am a voyeur with a camera and a sense of composition and beauty. So, naturally, I seek fulfillment in the process when I go out. It is all I have when the planned creation of "art" is on my mind. But when the moment happens, there is no time for process, only reaction. Those shots are the only ones I like. That is why I shoot portraits in a totally candid way without posing or lighting or anything. Because I can't come up with anything beautiful on my own, I just see it and there it is.
FOr some, Ansel Adamds for instance, craft and art are indivisible. The craft is art. There is the secret, making artful craft.
O
Oldprof
Guest
There are many paths to photographic excellence. Mastery of the technical aspects of the photographic craft was important to people like Ansel Adams and W. Eugene Smith. Both are rightfully considered great photographers. Robert Capa gave much less attention to printing and the technical perfection of his images. But Capa was present at important historical events, risked his life, and made dramatic photographs. Capa's subject matter interested the public at large and triumphed over technical considerations. That's what made Capa a great photojournalist.
Most of us just photograph for the enjoyment of ourselves, and our families and friends. Whether our photographs are "good" or not is mostly a personal consideration. But if you want your photographic work to be recognized by the broader public you need to develop a personal style, approach, and subject matter that is recognizable. You also need to get your work published or otherwise disseminated to a larger audience.
Most of us just photograph for the enjoyment of ourselves, and our families and friends. Whether our photographs are "good" or not is mostly a personal consideration. But if you want your photographic work to be recognized by the broader public you need to develop a personal style, approach, and subject matter that is recognizable. You also need to get your work published or otherwise disseminated to a larger audience.
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
ErnestoJL said:
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
shutterflower said:
No-body can go out and make art, , no reason to worry !?
You feel you are not the artist you would like to be ? Reminds me to my own doubts related to my approach to photography ?
Probably this is a too intimate question but what kind art would you like to be ?
Is that "artist" maybe a definition others have made and which does not fit all all for your person ? Art is a terribly often abused and misleading word and I always found it would be better to speak of a "transfer of emotions" in photography.
Personal freedom is the best thing in art, art IS freedom, a very different environment compared to our everyday life which is extremely regularized with hundreds of social and moral standards.
As long as YOU find your pics are tranferring YOUR emotions well you are artistic enuff I'd say . Forget what others claim to be art, why should that concern you ?
Best,
Bertram
John Robertson
Well-known
I knew the man quite well, he died age 90+ a few years ago, he taught me watercolour painting at college. He was a delightful unassuming man, who would be horrified by these prices!! He has documented beautifully the countryside around Dundee for posterity. The city itself is not particularly beautiful, but the surrounding countryside is stunning. He once told me he had neither owned nor ever used a camera in his life, just didn't feel the need to! 🙄RJBender said:
P.S. I own an original pencil drawing he did of me when I was 13. Signed and dated1958.
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djon
Well-known
Photography is better than "art" most of the time, even when it's the worst of hack work, though it's OK to call some photography "art" just like it's OK to call the occasional painting "art."
In more common use, "art" has come to mean "bogus," "jive," "BS," "decorative."
In more common use, "art" has come to mean "bogus," "jive," "BS," "decorative."
Andy K
Well-known
Does an extreme focus on craft lead to a loss of artistic value?
Absolutely not.
Art is (usually but not always) the finished article, as presented to the viewer. Be it a photograph, a collage, a painting, a sculpture, a piece of music, a piece of performance art, an installation... the artistic value is in the eye of the viewer.
Focussing on the craft is up to the individual artist. If they want to do the best they can, it is only sensible to know how to use their chosen meduium to the best of their abilities.
Absolutely not.
Art is (usually but not always) the finished article, as presented to the viewer. Be it a photograph, a collage, a painting, a sculpture, a piece of music, a piece of performance art, an installation... the artistic value is in the eye of the viewer.
Focussing on the craft is up to the individual artist. If they want to do the best they can, it is only sensible to know how to use their chosen meduium to the best of their abilities.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
Bertram2 said:
Bertram,
What type of changes does your friend recommend? Free advice from a master photographer is a good thing 😀
R.J.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
I don't think anyone will take you seriously if you use one of these. 😛
R.J.
R.J.
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RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
bmattock said:
His English is 1,000 times better than my German! 😉
R.J.
Andy K
Well-known
Bertram2 said:
There was a documentary on him here in Britain earlier this year. Korda related how he got the shot: There was a memorial service with Castro making a speech, Guevara was on the platform among other revolutionaries with Castro. Korda was in the crowd near the front with a Leica and 90mm lens. He thought Che looked quite striking and snapped two frames of him, one in landscape orientation and one in portrait. At first he didn't think they were anything special, and neither did Revolucion newspaper which ran photographs of Castro instead. The photographs of Che hung on Korda's wall for seven years unused. Then an Italian journo saw them and Korda allowed him to take it.. A few months later Che was killed and the journo made posters from them. A legend was born.
Korda never made any money from the photograph and was happy to see it used to promote the revolutionary ideal which he supported. He only ever sued once, when the image was used for a vodka advert, on the grounds that it went against the ideals Che had fought for. He won an out of court settlement of $50,000 which he donated to the Cuban medical system.
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R
ruben
Guest
Does an extreme focus on craft lead to a loss of artistic value ?
- And what the hell does it matter ????
- And what the hell does it matter ????
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
RJBender said:
RJ,
If at all he suggests anything then it concerns possible modifications which could make my pics less boring ! 😀 😀
At this point we have the same opinion: Boring pics are forbidden for public use. !!
Best,
Bertram
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