Does it concern you that you can not hold a digital image?

[Ronald M]

I can make multiple backup copies stored in different locations including my large bank vault.

Color negs fade. Ansel Adams had a darkroom fire ruining several prize negs. He dug a fruit cellar and moved the remaining negs.

May i suggest scanning the film and getting the best of both ?

 

[rbiemer]

I don't disagree with you, Bill but this

Unlike, say, 35mm film, which has remained unchanged in format for over a century, digital storage methods continue to change.

makes me think that there were similar discussions when "miniature" film was being developed and it hadn't reached maturity as a format...

As an aside - anyone who imagines that in the years and decades after they shuffle off this mortal coil, some grandson or great-granddaughter will be holding your negatives up to the light to try to figure out what kind of person you were needs to take a closer look at eBay. Five minutes after you're dead, your children will have your precious cameras and lenses on eBay, and your treasured and well-preserved negatives will be at the local dump. Refer to the multiple posts by newbies on RFF that begin "I just inherited this camera from my granddad...what's it worth?"

And I would also suggest looking at flea markets, antique stores or Salvatoin Army type stores to see this as well. And I'm not sure if anyone in my family will want granddad's stuff after I'm gone--certainly no one wants it now and any of the younger folks in my family will be very unlikely to feel any connection with him, particularly those who never knew him.
Rob
Edit: I know what my grandfather was like so my retention of his slides is not to learn about him so much as to remember him and what he'd done. And they are a reminder of the stories he told me.
R

 

[bmattock]

As far as archival storage goes, only time will tell how well a digital file will last.

Not true. A digital file kept backed up and updated will last essentially forever. Your bank does it now with your financial records. Film people keep repeating this like it was a mantra, but it's just not true.

As far as negatives from film cameras, I have good negs from my grandparents dating back from early 1900's in great condition.

And one hurricane hits your house and they're gone. You know my house is in NC too. Hurricane Hugo took out our second floor - where I used to keep my negatives. Single point of failure. They last a long time indeed, assuming nobody flies a plane into the building where they're kept, or a hurricane doesn't knock a tree into your house, etc. But those disasters do happen, and then what?

 

[bmattock]

I don't disagree with you, Bill but this
makes me think that there were similar discussions when "miniature" film was being developed and it hadn't reached maturity as a format...

There were very similar arguments, but not so much about longevity of storage, mostly about quality of the image (which used to be one of the main arguments against digital a couple years ago).

I have posted on this topic before. I have a largish collection of photo magazines dating back to the early 1900's, and the 'Letters to the Editor' were filled with vitriole and angry outbursts over the evil bad 'miniature camera craze' (35mm cameras) and how it was ruining photography, how any old fool could take a good photo and how dare they this and I refuse that, and I'll switch from dry plates when they pry them out of my cold dead hands, etc. Same arguments, same knuckle-headed luddites unable or unwilling to accept change.

And I would also suggest looking at flea markets, antique stores or Salvatoin Army type stores to see this as well. And I'm not sure if anyone in my family will want granddad's stuff after I'm gone--certainly no one wants it now and any of the younger folks in my family will be very unlikely to feel any connection with him, particularly those who never knew him.
Rob
Edit: I know what my grandfather was like so my retention of his slides is not to learn about him so much as to remember him and what he'd done. And they are a reminder of the stories he told me.
R

I have no photos or negatives or anything else from that era - only a few of the photos my dad took. One set of grandparents didn't hold much truck with photographs, and the other was a fan of Polaroids, which nobody knows where they went. I've got a couple photos of myself as a child and that's it.

 

[rbiemer]

I was thinking I remembered you posting some of those letters here before.
And I would bet there were similar discussions about fire:
"The only proper fire is one started by lightening; they are more honest and burn hotter"
😀
Rob
Thinking of my granddad now and I need to call my dad again--he ought to be home by now. Later

 

[Al Kaplan]

I'm sure that my son will waste no time in trying to unload all of my "junk", which is why I've showed him how you sell everything by itself, lenses, front caps, rear caps, hoods, cases, M adapters. A box full of assorted adapters and hoods is probably worth hundreds of dollars. We've also gone over recent auction results for drawings, etchings, water colors, oils, etc. by various artists I've known. He now knows that years ago when his mom and I were young and poor, and I traded photography of an artist's paintings for some of his work, it was well worth the effort. Some of those pieces would now likely bring $50,000, $70,000 or more each at a Christies or Sothebies auction, so please don't dump them in the Goodwill box.

 

[gb hill]

Not true. A digital file kept backed up and updated will last essentially forever. Your bank does it now with your financial records. Film people keep repeating this like it was a mantra, but it's just not true.

That's an assumption on what you have read but I'm sure digital storage will become better over time. As far as negatives being destroyed by fire or flood, well so can digital storage. Unless of course you take Rush Limbaughs advice & get Carbonite for just $49.95 a year!😀

 

[Al Kaplan]

There is no way to tell which worthless image will be sought after in the future.

 

[Prosaic]

"Does it concern you that you can not hold a digital image?"

Well, most of the artists I admire shoot film. Most of the photography I find on the web and like is shot on film. I dont think it has to do with "holding" something. Knowing there´s a physical original behind a picture is special in itself.

 

[Eugen Mezei]

As an aside - anyone who imagines that in the years and decades after they shuffle off this mortal coil, some grandson or great-granddaughter will be holding your negatives up to the light to try to figure out what kind of person you were needs to take a closer look at eBay. Five minutes after you're dead, your children will have your precious cameras and lenses on eBay, and your treasured and well-preserved negatives will be at the local dump. Refer to the multiple posts by newbies on RFF that begin "I just inherited this camera from my granddad...what's it worth?"

You can "back up" that too. Get your children interested in your hobby!
At first sight you would think this is something difficult and indeed it can be (although rarely mostly it is just commoditiy), but isn't the duty of parents to pass knowledge they learned to their children? E.g. given I consider parents really stupid who don't pass their motherlanguage to their children. You can see this very often in mixed families that the kids learn only the language of one of the parents.

Eugen

 

[Socke]

As you may be aware, the 9/11 attacks on the USA were intended to bring down the financial center by attacking the twin towers. Do you know how much money was lost out of bank holder's accounts on account of the attacks, which utterly wiped out the financial records of several banks and brokerages? None. Not one penny was lost.

At the same time, 40,000 negatives of the John F. Kennedy years in office, the vast majority of them unprinted and unscanned, were destroyed when the towers fell. They were not recovered. The only remaining copies were those few negatives which had been printed over the years, which were scanned from the remaining prints. All was lost. They won't be back. They're gone.

Since you mentioned it, Ontrack recovered 99% of the data stored on a harddrive which crashed with the shuttle Columbia!

 

[kuzano]

40 Years... try 10-15

40 Years... try 10-15

I back up my digital data to a DVD. I store my BW negs in an air conditioned room. 40 years later I die. 50 more years past by. Someone finds my DVD and my negs. I am betting that the negs will be usable and the DVD won't.

40 Years is a truly long time for devices to prevail that can read old data... perhaps outside of hard drives.

There's plenty of media archived in the world today that you'd be hard pressed to find a device to read it. Some of that media is about 10-12 years old.

In fact, there are CD disks from early CD burners that the current technology CD/DVD devices cannot read.

Keep those negatives. If you shoot digital, output to negative and positive film from your computer. Amazingly, you can still play old vinyl records on current decks, but where does one find a Beta Video player. Where does one find Jazz drive to read those old backups of ten years ago. Where does one go to find a first gen CD burner or DVD player that works on the stuff burned ten years ago.

Make sure you are transferring all those digital files forward before they cannot be read or translated.... without paying the fees that are spawned by services that will do it for a price.

 

[bmattock]

That's an assumption on what you have read but I'm sure digital storage will become better over time.

It's actually what I do for a living. Keep data safeguarded. A digital image is no different than source code in terms of keeping backups, versioning, and updating hardware/software based on technology changes. An assumption? No, this is my profession.

As far as negatives being destroyed by fire or flood, well so can digital storage. Unless of course you take Rush Limbaughs advice & get Carbonite for just $49.95 a year!😀

Offsite storage, as I mentioned, eliminates the single point of failure. Film by its nature has a single point of failure as there is just one unique original copy. All film and digital copies of the original are inferior to the original. Digital copies of a digital photo are identical to the original and so are any number of generations of copies. Sorry, film loses on that basis.

 

[Al Patterson]

With film I can actually hold the neg. The original film itself. Is there anything to actually hold with digital. A SD card? A Hard Drive? Are they the same as holding in one's hand a neg? Once you really think about it, are your images really all that "safe" with digital? I invite rebuttals, opinions and informative disagreements.

True, but pasting an 8" by 10" on my monitor degrades the utility of the computer.

I'm of the opinion that digital can be safer than film, as if my house burns down I will lose my film and one set of digital images. Now if I'm home and my laptop and desktop are in the same place, I lose everything.

 

[bmattock]

40 Years is a truly long time for devices to prevail that can read old data... perhaps outside of hard drives.

There's plenty of media archived in the world today that you'd be hard pressed to find a device to read it. Some of that media is about 10-12 years old.

In fact, there are CD disks from early CD burners that the current technology CD/DVD devices cannot read.

Digital storage media fail. Accept that. If you do not keep copies and keep media refreshed, either you do not wish to keep your images, or you are an idiot. Either way, it's your fault, not the fault of the media.

Keep those negatives. If you shoot digital, output to negative and positive film from your computer.

I've heard several people claim to do it. I don't believe them.

Amazingly, you can still play old vinyl records on current decks, but where does one find a Beta Video player.

Amazingly, the movies that were available on Beta and VHS are now available for DVD and Blu-Ray, and one can even have their old 8mm Super 8 movies (which are GASP film) copied onto the most current media. Again, if you don't keep up with the technology changes, that makes you an idiot, it doesn't make technology bad.

Where does one find Jazz drive to read those old backups of ten years ago.

All my files from Jazz and Zip drives were copied off long ago. What kind of idiot doesn't keep up with changes in technology?

Where does one go to find a first gen CD burner or DVD player that works on the stuff burned ten years ago.

In fact, all of my oldest CD's work just fine on my latest PC, but I understand that some go bad. That's why I keep newer copies of my important files. Again, what kind of idiot fails to do so, knowing that technology changes and CD's go bad?

Make sure you are transferring all those digital files forward before they cannot be read or translated.... without paying the fees that are spawned by services that will do it for a price.

That's the idea.

And tell me where one goes to get those JFK negatives that were destroyed in the 9/11 attacks. Where are they, huh? Film lasts forever, so tell me where they are, I want to see them. Come on, film is indestructible, so show them to me.

http://www.jacqueslowe.com/lost_negatives.php

Film lasts a good long time. Until your house floods or burns down or your kids throw your old slides in the garbage can after you cack it. Digital will last longer if kept up - and if not kept up, the person responsible is either not interested in keeping them, or they are an idiot. That's the way it is.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

And once again, we're derailed from the original question.

 

[bmattock]

You can "back up" that too. Get your children interested in your hobby!
At first sight you would think this is something difficult and indeed it can be (although rarely mostly it is just commoditiy), but isn't the duty of parents to pass knowledge they learned to their children? E.g. given I consider parents really stupid who don't pass their motherlanguage to their children. You can see this very often in mixed families that the kids learn only the language of one of the parents.

Eugen

I have no children.

 

[bmattock]

Since you mentioned it, Ontrack recovered 99% of the data stored on a harddrive which crashed with the shuttle Columbia!

I didn't know that, that's amazing!

 

[kuzano]

I must rub you the wrong way Bill

I must rub you the wrong way Bill

Digital storage media fail. Accept that. If you do not keep copies and keep media refreshed, either you do not wish to keep your images, or you are an idiot. Either way, it's your fault, not the fault of the media.



I've heard several people claim to do it. I don't believe them.



Amazingly, the movies that were available on Beta and VHS are now available for DVD and Blu-Ray, and one can even have their old 8mm Super 8 movies (which are GASP film) copied onto the most current media. Again, if you don't keep up with the technology changes, that makes you an idiot, it doesn't make technology bad.



All my files from Jazz and Zip drives were copied off long ago. What kind of idiot doesn't keep up with changes in technology?



In fact, all of my oldest CD's work just fine on my latest PC, but I understand that some go bad. That's why I keep newer copies of my important files. Again, what kind of idiot fails to do so, knowing that technology changes and CD's go bad?



That's the idea.

And tell me where one goes to get those JFK negatives that were destroyed in the 9/11 attacks. Where are they, huh? Film lasts forever, so tell me where they are, I want to see them. Come on, film is indestructible, so show them to me.

http://www.jacqueslowe.com/lost_negatives.php

Film lasts a good long time. Until your house floods or burns down or your kids throw your old slides in the garbage can after you cack it. Digital will last longer if kept up - and if not kept up, the person responsible is either not interested in keeping them, or they are an idiot. That's the way it is.

Every one of your rebuttals to my post, overlooked the fact that I was strongly implying that one must keep up with technology and move the data forward when the technology changes.

Having worked in my profession in computer hardware and computer consulting, I am often confronted with people who pull up all sorts of old media on me, never having taken the time to move data to newer media. In fact, the numbers of people who do no backups, nor understand the necessity is dismal.

On many points I agree with your counterpoints to my post. Are we arguing, or agreeing with one another.

 

[bmattock]

Every one of your rebuttals to my post, overlooked the fact that I was strongly implying that one must keep up with technology and move the data forward when the technology changes.

I debated that as I answered your posts. But I decided to take them as they were written, despite the fact that the last statement made it appear as though you were not stating an anti-digital position.

Having worked in my profession in computer hardware and computer consulting, I am often confronted with people who pull up all sorts of old media on me, never having taken the time to move data to newer media. In fact, the numbers of people who do no backups, nor understand the necessity is dismal.

As do I. I am dismayed by the people who feel that any failure of digital media is due to the inadequacies of technology, when the truth is that they cannot or will not learn it.

Every time I hear a horror story of 'lost photos' I feel badly for the person who lost their photos, but the question is always asked "do you have backups somewhere" and the answer is always "no." Then the talk turns to how terrible this brand of hard drive is or that operating system, etc. No one wants to take responsibility for their photos - and then something catastrophic happens and it's let's blame digital media.

On many points I agree with your counterpoints to my post. Are we arguing, or agreeing with one another.

I suspect we're agreeing. As I said, I wasn't entirely sure from the tenor of your post, but decided to simply deal with each point you made.