Does Leica really need a full frame sensor?

[Tuolumne]

Let's get this on the table, since it seems to be an article of faith that Leica must have a full frame sensor for the M.

Complaints about the sensor circle around two points:
1) The crop sensor gives a different FOV with the traditional lenses
2) The crop sensor does not have as good noise characteristics as state of the art FF sensors

But these are two differeent and independent issues that frequently get conflated in the FF discussion. Suppose Leica could get a 1.33x crop sensor (same as the current crop factor) with noise characteristics as good as or better than the state of the art FF sensors available for Nikon, Canon, etc. How many people would still be bothered by the 1.33x crop factor? I suspect mosty people would be quite happy to have this new 1.33x super-state of the art sensor even with the 1.33x crop factor. After all, people have had a long time to get used to the 1.33x crop factor and most of them haven't died becuase of it.

With this thought in mind, and recognizing the arguments from other threads that talk about the difficulty of achieveing a full-frame sensor in a RF Camera, I predict Leica will introduce a super-state of the art 1.33x crop factpr sensor long before a full frame sensor becomes available, if it ever does.

Perhaps this is also behind Leica's thinking in promising the M8 will be upgradeable "forever". It will be alot easier to upgrade it to future sensors with the same size as the current sensor than upgrading it to a full frame sensor. My thinking is that such a full-frame sensor, if it ever does appear, would constitute the heart of an M9 camera, and it's baby brother 1.33x crop factor would constitute the going forward path of the M8. Kind of like the Kodak D300 and D3, if they were based on an upgradeable platform of the D200 and D2.

Respectfully submitted,
/T

 

[tomasis]

Of course, it is no question if leica needs it. Barnack created 35mm film so I expect Leica to follow the tradition but this is not important.

When I speak from my experiences with Rd1, I find often 35mm lenses to be imperfect or more of difficult design compared to 50mm so when I want available low light 50mm fov, it appears no much choice for 35mm. When most people seem to like fov 35mm so they go with 28mm for leica m8 so it is only f2.0. Not too much choice either.

I want use Noctilux, Sonnar, Elmar, Summilux as they are.

 

[Tuolumne]

Of course, it is no question if leica needs it. Barnack created 35mm film so I expect Leica to follow the tradition but this is not important.

When I speak from my experiences with Rd1, I find often 35mm lenses to be imperfect or more of difficult design compared to 50mm so when I want available low light 50mm fov, it appears no much choice for 35mm. When most people seem to like fov 35mm so they go with 28mm for leica m8 so it is only f2.0. Not too much choice either.

I want use Noctilux, Sonnar, Elmar, Summilux as they are.

There's no question that a full frame sensor is the ideal for the reasosn you mention. But if you couldn't have it, would you consider the M8 "satisfactory" if its sensor were otherwise state of the art?

/T

 

[warren1960]

Does Leica really need a full frame sensor?


Yes. I think there are a lot of working photojournalists who might find a FF M body appealing, too.

 

[LCT]

No fast wides with crop factor.

 

[Tuolumne]

Does Leica really need a full frame sensor?


Yes. I think there are a lot of working photojournalists who might find a FF M body appealing, too.

Again, nothing is perfect. I doubt the crop factor is what is keeping PJs from using the M8 en masses. As SM points out, they switched away from RF cameras in the '70s when the SLR became dominant. A full-frame M8 sensor isn't going to change that at all.

/T

 

[Tuolumne]

No fast wides with crop factor.

Ok, so?

You're jsut saying you want an ideal camera. That doesn't exist ever. Close your eyes - imagine the M8-3 with this new 1.33x super-state of the art sensor? Are you happy or will you stick your thmb in your eye and wait for the perfection that may never arrive?

I think this M8-3 would be a killer camera for almost everyone.

/T

 

[dpetrzelka]

I will not even consider purchasing a digital RF until a FF is available-

We all treasure these lenses for their specific performance characteristics, and each was designed within its given focal length for specific performance, a crop factor changes all of that. I see a FF sensor as essential in the evolution of the digital RF.

 

[tomasis]

There's no question that a full frame sensor is the ideal for the reasosn you mention. But if you couldn't have it, would you consider the M8 "satisfactory" if its sensor were otherwise state of the art?

/T

I think that most people can live with crop 1.33x. I don't mind wait 5-20 years for full frame sensor because I feel that I'm not too much attached to BW digital conversions either color works. So only for the fact that the largest sensor size you can go is crop 1.33x of available digital rangefinder, I'm ready give up M8 and continue to buy film instead so long I can use 50mm as 50fov for my personal works and I seldom take pictures. But if I was professional photographer, M8 is the only choice I'd could go for no matter how much cropped sensor is. We don't have much choices, don't we?

 

[Tuolumne]

Leica does have another option, i.e. release fast wide angles for the crop factor. 😱

If they make most of their money in lenses, that is the way to go.

Roland.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to see them intoruce this new super-sensor with a slew of new fast lenses with FOV optimized for a 1.33x crop factor? Yahoo!!

I mean a 37.5mm f1 Noctilux! 😎

/T

 

[cmogi10]

I wouldn't mind a full frame, only because then my lenses will look the same on my M8 s my MP.
But as far as the sensor itself goes, I don't have any problem with it, I've gotten used to the crop and the thing holding my images back sure isn't the sensor or any crop factor, it's me.

 

[aizan]

which is more difficult: to convince leica not to work on ff, or for leica to actually make a ff drf?

 

[tomasis]

28/1.4 summilux, 21mm, 24mm summicron would require more resources to make. I don't even think that many could afford with one of those lenses. Look at the price of Zeiss 15mm OMG. Wide angled lenses are not easy to design, isn't? It might be cheaper for Leica to make DRF FF instread.

Leica has made WATE so it is up to you to decide if one or two stops slower are enough 🙂

 

[tomasis]

which is more difficult: to convince leica not to work on ff, or for leica to actually make a ff drf?

great paradox btw 😀 But don't we know that Leica has a goal to work on FF no matter how they have to deal with technical limits even it takes our lifetime? I'm 100% sure that they are working on the goal maybe only at theorotical basis or not.

 

[Tuolumne]

Yep. Think about which way they will make more revenue: M9 with cropped sensor, less noise and more lenses, or M9 with FF sensor and no lenses 😀

Please...you mean M8-3! 🙄

But yes, your analysis nails it. This is deffinitely the way forward for them. And a lucrative one, too.

/T

 

[LCT]

Ok, so? You're jsut saying you want an ideal camera...

I'm just telling the truth. No fast wides with crop factor. Means that you cannot do with an M8 what you could do with a beaten M2 or a new Bessa. Just a fact.

 

[tomasis]

Wouldn't really wide, fast lenses on a crop sensor M create the same basic technology problem that limits Leica from using a FF sensor in an M body with existing M lenses now?

You nailed it :angel:

 

[Tuolumne]

I'm just telling the truth. No fast wides with crop factor. Means that you cannot do with an M8 what you could do with a beaten M2 or a new Bessa. Just a fact.

But there is still quite alot you can do with an M8 that you can't do with an M2-M7. And many people seems to prefer it that way.

/T

 

[photogdave]

But as far as the sensor itself goes, I don't have any problem with it, I've gotten used to the crop and the thing holding my images back sure isn't the sensor or any crop factor, it's me.

Well said. In general I think this applies to more of us than we would care to admit! There are many photographers out there in the world shooting with all brands of cameras and debating on all kinds of forums the merits of this vs that who are using equipment that exceeds their capabilities. Myself included.
Thanks for the reality check! 🙂