Does Leica really need a full frame sensor?

[Tuolumne]

ferider, it's not easier to support. Leica already has a crop sensor in the M8. Do you wonder why they don't have really wide, fast lenses for it?

I've heard people talk about the problems with a FF RF sensor: angle of incidence of light rays, pit depth, etc. What's the problem with wide-fast lenses with a 1.33x crop factor? Can't you use the CV 28mm f1.9 on the M8?

/T

 

[fbf]

Nothing to do with "need", but to show Leica is capable of doing anything.
IMO, digital ff for rangefinder is totally waste especially for WA lenses.

 

[tomasis]

No he didn't. Smaller format is easier to support. Depends on how retro-focal
the lenses are. There is already a 4/3 50/1.4 Summilux equivalent ...

if you have to make the lens larger (optics) to accept both film and crop 1.33x then it might be more difficult to deal with limitations of optics. Imagine you get sharp pictures at f5.6-f8 then it can get be problematic with wide corner perfomance when you enlarge optics and shot at wider apertures. That is my mere speculation (im not expert) and so far I know it exists Nikkor 28/1.4 but the price of this is also very high. Why? Due to difficult design and/or expensive material making?

 

[tomasis]

One thing which get me wondering. Why are 4/3 lenses are so large though the sensor is quite small? is it not that it requires higher resolving perfomance?

 

[Tuolumne]

Tuolumne, that will get you the equivalent of a 35mm on a film M. You aren't thinking nearly wide enough.

Perhaps everyone else is just thinking too wide! 😉

It's only in recent years that so many high quality super-wides have been available for RF cameras. After all, 50mm is the widest lens the M3 will take without goggles or an external rangefinder. Maybe we will just need to get used to going back to basics with a FF M9. Would it really be so bad if the fastest lens, say f1.4 or better, had a 35mm effective FOV on a FF M9?

/T

 

[jarski]

please.. full frame sensor is the only path. you can always crop it if you absolytely want, just like Nikon has done with D3 with its D2xyz mode.

 

[satbunny]

Quite pleased to see the news about FF. I think that a new M8 or even M9 is coming which will be the digital RF for me. I am less concerned with FF but if offered on a tweaked and improved M8 then I may just mortgage the house and go for it in 3-4 years. But my M7 is now on it's way, so back to film for me.

 

[tomasis]

Perhaps everyone else is just thinking too wide! 😉

It's only in recent years that so many high quality super-wides have been available for RF cameras. After all, 50mm is the widest lens the M3 will take without goggles or an external rangefinder. Maybe we will just need to get used to going back to basics with a FF M9. Would it really be so bad if the fastest lens, say f1.4 or better, had a 35mm effective FOV on a FF M9?

/T

You got the good idea. Me, 50mm fov guy, love everything of 50mm, would go for M3 digital FF with 1.0x VF (why not monochrome).

How wide lenses can FF sensor deal without big problems?

I think that monochrome sensor is interesting idea. Just modify this so heavily, why not put all off set microlenses on the whole area, some microlenses at corners at higher degree offseting. Not only around corners as with the m8 sensor If I did understand right. We don't need worry about IR issue, AWB etc. Just concentrate on widest available dynamic range DR as possible. I think that the weakness of digital sensor is low DR.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Ok, so?

What do you mean, "so"?

Then, why not ask: does anybody really need a camera? "I'm a photojournalist". So?

😕

 

[kevin m]

FF would be great, but the 1.33 crop isn't a deal-killer to me. The deal killer - aside from the cost of the M8 - is the lack of fast wide-angle lenses, namely the equivalent to a 35mm Summilux. Something in the 26mm range would do it, preferably f1.4, but f2.0 would be fine, too.

 

[jarski]

my main consern after M8 came out, was that small Leica would not have financial/technical capacity to produce full frame M in any near future. or that M8 would be a flop like M5 was, that would eat up their capital to continue. I'm very happy that my conserns seem to have been wrong, and Leica is on their way to develop full frame digital sensor behind their (and ofcourse Cosina, Zeiss etc.) great M-glass.

 

[LCT]

...Would it really be so bad if the fastest lens, say f1.4 or better, had a 35mm effective FOV on a FF M9?...

You would need a 28/1.4 monster like the Nikkor i'm afraid. Same for the Zeiss 15/2.8 if you want a 21mm FoV.

 

[oscroft]

The issue isn't the lens. The issue is the distance between the lens and the sensor and the angle it creates.

That's it, absolutely spot on. So, if Leica made some new retrofocus lenses in M mount (and they have some rather good SLR designs at their disposal), I can't see what would then stop them making a full frame RF camera.

 

[jbf]

The only thing 'holding' it back is that you arn't getting the full angle of view.

 

[Tuolumne]

You would need a 28/1.4 monster like the Nikkor i'm afraid. Same for the Zeiss 15/2.8 if you want a 21mm FoV.

As long as it isn't bigger than a Noctilux we are good to go!

/T

 

[Tuolumne]

What do you mean, "so"?

Then, why not ask: does anybody really need a camera? "I'm a photojournalist". So?

😕

Gabriel,
To be asked to make a compromise is hardly the same as being asked to give up the whole ghost. I'm just saying if you had to give up fast super-wides to get this 1.33x crop factor super-sensor, it wouldn't be the end of the world. You are grossly exaggerating by suggesting it's the same thing as giving up photography. All cameras involve a tradeoff of some kind, otherwise we would all just be using dSLRs and not knocking our heads together at RFF. :bang:

/T

 

[CameraQuest]

Leica's owner Mr. Kaufman and Leica's CEO Stephen Lee have made no secret of the fact that Leica is working on a full frame M camera. And yes, it is needed, for sales and the long term future of the company.

Price and shipping dates are another matter. I am guessing it will be shown at least in prototype form at Photokina next October, and that its pricing will make the current M8 camera Leica's "economy digital M."

Time will tell, it should be interesting.

Stephen

 

[Tuolumne]

Leica's owner Mr. Kaufman and Leica's CEO Stephen Lee have made no secret of the fact that Leica is working on a full frame M camera. And yes, it is needed, for sales and the long term future of the company.

Price and shipping dates are another matter. I am guessing it will be shown at least in prototype form at Photokina next October, and that its pricing will make the current M8 camera Leica's "economy digital M."

Time will tell, it should be interesting.

Stephen

This full-frame camera would then be the second Leica platform, the M9, along with the original M8 1.33x crop factor platform. It will cost kilobucks more than the stock M8. You dream...you pay.

/T

 

[visiondr]

As long as it isn't bigger than a Noctilux we are good to go!

/T

In other words your saying it wouldn't matter much to you if 33% of the viewfinder frame were obscured by a fast wide?

 

[peterm1]

My feeling is that industry is beginning to head in this direction more generally. Both Nikon and Leica have top of the range full frame models and history suggests that it does not take too long before pro camera features migrate to prosumer and consumer models. So eventually there is likely to be a trend towards full frame sensors for prosumer models as well.

I can therefore see why Leica feels obliged to move down this path. What surprises me a little given their history is that they may be contemplating it sooner rather than later . After all Leica has always lagged behind technology rather than having been at the forefront - as perhaps befits a smaller company with limited resources and traditionalist values as well as aspirations to have the best quality rather than most up to date technology. However maybe they feel a full frame sensor is a fundamental step that will not await longer term development given Leica's desire to be right up there in the quality department. My gut feeling is that once the trend accelerates it will not take long before any camera will need a full frame sensor to be taken seriously as a top end offering.

While it may be hard to spot differences in image quality (between full frame and smaller sensors) under most circumstances, I believe larger sensors do make it easier for better quality under exacting circumstances (eg larger sensor usually means less noise ) and more importantly perhaps by having full frame it again makes it possible to rely on those lovely normal and longer lenses that Leica is renowned for.

 

[Frank Petronio]

I would love a FF SLR since the VF is so much nicer FF than APS. But on a RF who cares? All we need are proper framelines and maybe a 24/2.

And less acronyms.