Does this camera exist?

[redimp]

Actually I've been looking closer at the Contax T (original manual focus cam), T2 that I own and the T3 that I am considering, as well as Fuji Klasse S.

Interestingly, the T2 has a ton of limitations I was not even aware of (which makes their importance questionable). The 1/500th is ONLY available at f16.

According to page 32 of this manual https://www.cameramanuals.org/contax/contax_t2.pdf the limitations are somewhat crazy. In Program mode shutter speeds above 1/125th are only available if you start stopping down, for example to shoot 1/250th you need to be at f5.6-f8.

This is somewhat ridiculous. I've noticed a lot of my pictures from T2 have quite a deep dof, but never gave it too much thought. When you go to aperture priority it gets even crazier – 1/125th is THE FASTEST shutter speed available for aperture priority, you can get it only at f4-f8, and if you stop down more you can only shoot slower speeds, like 1/90th. This article confirms it. https://www.35mmc.com/04/02/2017/contax-t2-vs-fuji-klasse-s/

I was thinking more on what I did not like with my T2, and I also came to a conclusion it's the pre-focusing without expanding the lens. When you release the shutter, the lens expands to correct distance, fires shutter and immediately retracts. There is no decisive moment that I can identify of when the picture is taken. I can't even know behind all the whirling.

I think all three other contestants, original T, T3 and Klasse S should not have this issue. On the T you focus by hand so the lens is already expanded to where it should be, on T3 and Klasse you can set a custom feature to extend the lens when pre-focusing, so I am hoping either of the three will have a much more pleasant shooting experience.

For the original T tho, I am afraid same limitations will kick in with the aperture speeds. I could not find any mention of how the camera handles this in the manual, so I would appreciate if anyone can share any knowledge on this matter. Is it same as T2? Manual is here https://www.cameramanuals.org/contax/contax_t.pdf

I must say the clamshell design of the T is really appealing to me, I can see this as a daily camera for myself, but if it has same exposure pairs available as the T2 it's a no-go for me.

T3 has aperture priority mode table on page 37 of this manual. https://www.cameramanuals.org/contax/contax_t3.pdf

It seems that 1/500th is available for all apertures, and in AE mode the cam will not go over 1/500th, BUT there is this weird dashed line on the graph, that indicates that for f2.8, f4 and f5.6 in AE mode the camera will act as if it's in program mode, and if the subject is too bright, it will effectively stop the lens down, and around f8 it will start increasing shutter speed all the way to 1/1200th.

I am not 100% sure I understand this correctly. Can anyone please confirm?

In auto-exposure mode (graph on page 35) the camera picks 1/500th only for f8 and above. The curve actually looks very close to the T2.

Klasse S in aperture priority (page 75 here https://www.35mmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/KLASSE-WS_E_090917.pdf) also has 1/500th available for all apertures, but as you stop down from 2.8 to 16 it increases shutter speed incrementally all the way up to 1/1000th. In automatic mode (page 74) it will choose f5.6-f16 for all the hand-held speeds (faster then 1/60th).

All of this is sort of disappointing, while I do understand the technical limitations. Looks like the T3 and Klasse S are the most suitable cameras for my daily camera choice, but the ebay prices are somewhat scary.

I could sell a T2, G1 kit and some other cams I don't use and get either a T3 or a Klasse S, but for that amount of money I can't help but wonder if something like a CLE with a 40mm would be a better choice, or maybe even a Hexar RF or some bessa. Yes the lens will stick out, yes I won't be able to carry it in the small rear pocket of my backpack, it will always have to stay inside the backpack. I will need a lens cap or maybe a half case to protect it from other stuff in the backpack (gym stuff, water bottle, laptop, lunchbox, wallet). But maybe it's worth it, I will definitely have more control over the camera and the look.

Then again, if I look at those cams I might look at small SLRs like people suggested here – the OM or a pentax or a canon with a 40mil pancake.

I think I am now even less sure in regards to what to do, then I was before. I was shooting over the weekend and had portra 800 loaded into the T2, and today it's sunny all of a sudden, and the T2 had a blinking aperture speed in the viewfinder again when I was trying to shoot a black vintage car under direct sunlight. Portra handles it fine, but it's a different look altogether.

 

[msarkki]

Regarding Contax T - I am maybe not 100% sure what you meant with limitations with aperture vs shutter speeds? It is an aperture priority camera, works just like as aperture priority works on SLRs. You select the aperture and camera selects the shutter speed from 1/500 to 8secs (not sure 100% about the long end, was it 4 or 8 secs). I cannot think any limitations regarding shutter speed vs. apertures, all shutter speeds are feasible for all apertures. However - there is no manual mode available, only aperture priority mode. There is a (bit fiddly) +1,5EV compensation button to get 1,5 stops overexposure when needed. Great little camera, I truly like the aperture control and manual focusing control.

BTW - Are you aware of Olympus XA, not that high-class and not as great lens, but functionally pretty much 1:1 with Contax T.

 

[jsrockit]

It sounds like a lot of the behavior you are describing was may be due to the manufacturers thinking you'd rely on flash in low light? I mean...these were nice cameras and were high quality for what they were, but they still use the P&S mentality vs. fully manual cameras.

 

[valdas]

It sounds like a lot of the behavior you are describing was may be due to the manufacturers thinking you'd rely on flash in low light? I mean...these were nice cameras and were high quality for what they were, but they still use the P&S mentality vs. fully manual cameras.

Exactly! There is a reason they are called P&S. Would it not have any limitations (like shutter speed, aperture or manual controls) why would anyone consider a traditional RF or SLR with big lenses? So yes, in a way you are right - such a camera (you are looking for) does not exist in pure form.

 

[splitimageview]

Interestingly, the T2 has a ton of limitations I was not even aware of (which makes their importance questionable). The 1/500th is ONLY available at f16.

According to page 32 of this manual https://www.cameramanuals.org/contax/contax_t2.pdf the limitations are somewhat crazy. In Program mode shutter speeds above 1/125th are only available if you start stopping down, for example to shoot 1/250th you need to be at f5.6-f8.

This is somewhat ridiculous.

I am not 100% sure I understand this correctly. Can anyone please confirm?

This is a limitation of the in-lens, leaf shutter design. The Fuji X100 has similar limitation, the max shutter speed at f/2 is reduced to 1/1000 and in fact even that is stretching things; 1/500 is the fastest shutter speed where the leaf shutter blades are completely open with the aperture at f/2. The fastest shutter speed is 1/4000 at smaller apertures. The leaf shutter can only travel so fast; it can't cover the larger area at f/2, but it can at smaller apertures.

This is why they include an ND filter built-in to the lens.

More here.

Other cameras have similar limitations, Canon G7, Fuji X10/20/30, among others.

 

[splitimageview]

I could sell a T2, G1 kit and some other cams I don't use and get either a T3 or a Klasse S, but for that amount of money I can't help but wonder if something like a CLE with a 40mm would be a better choice, or maybe even a Hexar RF or some bessa. Yes the lens will stick out, yes I won't be able to carry it in the small rear pocket of my backpack, it will always have to stay inside the backpack. I will need a lens cap or maybe a half case to protect it from other stuff in the backpack (gym stuff, water bottle, laptop, lunchbox, wallet). But maybe it's worth it, I will definitely have more control over the camera and the look.

Then again, if I look at those cams I might look at small SLRs like people suggested here – the OM or a pentax or a canon with a 40mil pancake.

Yes, the trade-off is up to you. Do you want full control, or pocketability?

OM with 40/2, Pentax 40/2.8 with MX/ME Super, Contax 139/159 with 45/2.8, various Nikons with Voigt 40/2 or the 45/2.8 Nikkor P. Or even Olympus Pen F half-frame with the 38/2.8 pancake.

Not all of those go to 1/2000, though. The Contax 159 and some small/light Nikons go to 1/4000.

Quite a bit of price variance...if it were me I wouldn't want to have a collectible knocked around in a backpack, I'd go with something cheap.

 

[Orthogonal]

I don't think any camera will fit your criteria exactly but here's one I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: the Rollei 35S/SE. It can shoot at 1/500 at 2.8, and while it doesn't shoot 1/1000 it does have a thread for attaching an ND filter. If you like the T2 lens I've read the lens is the same, though the Rollei has the HFT coating instead of the Zeiss T*. It has no AF or AE and the meter isn't very good (at least on the SE) but if you're willing to shoot manual it's probably a much more flexible camera for most things than any of the other P&S options you mention. The price is also far cheaper than the other options and being mechanical it'll probably put up with more daily abuse - plus it's tiny so you'll be more likely to have it with you. It's a divisive camera when it comes to functionality, but IMO when it's used the way it's designed to be used rather than how other cameras work it's actually very well thought out. It's a different vibe to the T2 but I'd check it out, it might suit you.

Like it's been mentioned before AF SLRs are decent options albeit nothing like a T2. A combo I have that I'm pretty into is the Canon EOS 650 and the 40mm 2.8 pancake. Jacket pocketable and surprisingly good AF, shutter tops out at 1/2000. Basically perfect if you're OK with AE or full auto but if you want to shoot manual it's not great since it only has one control dial (you have to hold down another button to control shutter speed) - otherwise I'm really impressed. I got the body for $10 and lenses go for around 80.

Good luck and let us know how it works out with whatever you do.

 

[valdas]

I don't think any camera will fit your criteria exactly but here's one I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: the Rollei 35S/SE. It can shoot at 1/500 at 2.8...

If we go down that route there are many pocketable scale focus or RF cameras with 1/500 and 2.8 or even faster lens. We can start with Ricoh 500 series and continue forever (all Oly XA models, plenty of Konicas etc.)

I have Rollei 35s - really nice camera and lens, but slow shooting, ergonomics not the best.

 

[Huss]

FYI the meter in the Fuji Klasse only reads down to EV4.
It really is a cheap P&S in a fancy body. Thing is, cheap P&S cameras can still make beautiful pics.

Of course I won't mention that the almighty Rollei QZ reads from EV-1 to EV 20....

 

[retinax]

Yes, the trade-off is up to you. Do you want full control, or pocketability?

OM with 40/2, Pentax 40/2.8 with MX/ME Super, Contax 139/159 with 45/2.8, various Nikons with Voigt 40/2 or the 45/2.8 Nikkor P. Or even Olympus Pen F half-frame with the 38/2.8 pancake.

Not all of those go to 1/2000, though. The Contax 159 and some small/light Nikons go to 1/4000.

Quite a bit of price variance...if it were me I wouldn't want to have a collectible knocked around in a backpack, I'd go with something cheap.

Words of wisdom here! We've all been tempted by the search for the perfect camera. But even if you find it, the search won't be over - it will break or be to dear to carry around or your requirements will change. Cameras are all compromises. And often the compromises we're willing to make change over time. I for instance am thinking of buying and using a tripod, that will change all sorts of compromises for me. The weight difference between some 35mm and 120 cameras will become insignificant, and lenses that need to be stopped down far will become very viable. Limitations can be good for creativity anyway!

I'd say try one of the cheaper options recommended and see from there.

 

[valdas]

FYI the meter in the Fuji Klasse only reads down to EV4.
It really is a cheap P&S in a fancy body. Thing is, cheap P&S cameras can still make beautiful pics.

Of course I won't mention that the almighty Rollei QZ reads from EV-1 to EV 20....

You may call it “cheap”, but it’s kinda expensive today
Well, I tried mine (bought recently for 200€) - I did not like ergonomics (exposure compensation, auto flash stuff etc), but the lens is great. So good I will probably keep this camera for some time.

 

[CharlesDAMorgan]

I handled the Rollei thingy with excellent lens etc, and it was ok if plasticky, but it confirmed why I hate point and shoots - the viewfinder is small and the operation joyless.

I'll stick to my Leica Panzerwagon 'Flex SL2 and R8.

 

[Huss]

I handled the Rollei thingy with excellent lens etc, and it was ok if plasticky, but it confirmed why I hate point and shoots - the viewfinder is small and the operation joyless.

I'll stick to my Leica Panzerwagon 'Flex SL2 and R8.

Plasticky? Are you talking about the Rollei QZ? It is made out of titanium and every button is metal. The only thing that is not metal is the rubber eyepiece cup.
I'm fondling it I mean caressing it I mean holding it right now.

 

[shawn]

or maybe even a Hexar RF or some bessa. Yes the lens will stick out, yes I won't be able to carry it in the small rear pocket of my backpack, it will always have to stay inside the backpack. I will need a lens cap or maybe a half case to protect it from other stuff in the backpack (gym stuff, water bottle, laptop, lunchbox, wallet). But maybe it's worth it, I will definitely have more control over the camera and the look.

One of the nice advantages of the Hexar RF over the Bessas is that an Elmar will fully collapse into the Hexar RF. It also has a faster top shutter speed.

Shawn

 

[splitimageview]

Yes...the fastest shutter speed of any M mount camera.

 

[yilong.f]

another choice, a Leica iiif +35 elmar or 50 elmar, no limitation at all, same compact with contax t2 cheaper than t3

 

[Huss]

You may call it “cheap”, but it’s kinda expensive today
Well, I tried mine (bought recently for 200€) - I did not like ergonomics (exposure compensation, auto flash stuff etc), but the lens is great. So good I will probably keep this camera for some time.

I'm saying it has cheap internals surrounded by a fancy skin.

You got killer deal, especially if it is the S or W model. The W now goes for over $1000.

 

[valdas]

I'm saying it has cheap internals surrounded by a fancy skin.

You got killer deal, especially if it is the S or W model. The W now goes for over $1000.

Yes, I know what you mean. And you are right and the same can be said about many cult p&s.

 

[jsrockit]

Cheaper internals but generally with a better lens... and let’s remember that the cheapest of cheap film point and shoots, at times, maybe had one shutter speed and aperture. These cameras are just going through a phase of popularity and are overpriced. They are all still pretty cool though. I loved when my only cameras were a Leica M6, a Contax T2 and the Leica Minilux (in the 90s). I didn’t like when both the T2 and Minilux had to be serviced twice in a short timeframe...

 

[jsrockit]

another choice, a Leica iiif +35 elmar or 50 elmar, no limitation at all, same compact with contax t2 cheaper than t3

They are a lot heavier though... and not everyone is a fan of the separate VF and RF. There is kind of a big philosophical difference in these cameras.