like2fiddle
Curious
My daughter has the lead in her high school musical beginning tonight. I, of course, want to capture this on film, but I really haven't done any shooting of actors on stage and was wondering about metering, IE rating, lenses, etc.
I'll be using tri-x and a M2 and M6; Probably a 50/1.4, 50/2, 35/2.8 or 40/2, and a 90/2.8 (wish I had a faster 90).
All advice appreciated.
I'll be using tri-x and a M2 and M6; Probably a 50/1.4, 50/2, 35/2.8 or 40/2, and a 90/2.8 (wish I had a faster 90).
All advice appreciated.
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
You might like to take, before the performance, incident light readings on the stage, which may be unevenly lit. Need to make friends with the people in charge of lighting. The speed of your 90 mm lens will indeed be a handicap. If the stage is a good deal higher than the floor where you will stand, that will be another difficulty.
Kim Coxon
Moderator
I used to regularly take photos during the dress rehearsal of amatuer productions. It was actually quite a nice money earner. I could never get good shots during a performance but the dress rehearsal was quite easy. Generally I feel an SLR is a better propositin than an RF for this. Unless you are doing "stage" shots, it looks best from a distance back and I used a fast (2.5) 200 on a tripod for most of it. Then did posed stage shots at the end.
If you are close enough for RF work, you will tend to be looking up at stage so the perspective may look a little odd.
Kim
If you are close enough for RF work, you will tend to be looking up at stage so the perspective may look a little odd.
Kim
Finder
Veteran
If they are really bad, we drag them out into the street and shot them there.
Pablito
coco frío
Having done a lot of theatrical work, I gotta say I use my Leicas for all sorts of things but sometimes Leica is not appropriate for the job. Try to borrow a dslr with an 80-200 2.8, and use the spot meter and use a tripod - or monopod if you need a more mobility. Set white balance to tungsten. If you are committed to film, then a 35mm slr with the 80-200 (and spot meter). Rent the equipment if you have to, it'll be worth it.
like2fiddle
Curious
Thanks for your input folks. I do have access to my son's Pentax SLR and his 200mm zoom. I think it opens to 3.5 or so. I am a little concerned about the noise from the mirror slap, but this is a musical, so perhaps I should not worry so much about that and try to take pics during songs. Renting a dslr is not an option up here in the hills.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
I've photographed a lot of stage performances (check my gallery) and I think you'll do fine with your Leica equipment -- certainly better than you'd do borrowing an unfamiliar SLR and a slow tele or tele-zoom lens.
Assuming you can sit reasonably close to the stage, the lenses you've got should work well. The 50/1.4 is a must-take, and the 90/2.8 is worth a try, although it will restrict your shooting opportunities somewhat. The vast majority of my best stage photos have been shot within this focal length range.
As Kim said, it would have been a bit easier if you could have attended a dress rehearsal instead of a performance, since you'd have been free to move around without worry about blocking other patrons' view. But if opening night is tonight, you'll just have to do what you can!
High school theaters vary a lot -- I've been in some that are huge and have state-of-the-art lighting gear, and others that are tiny and lit by nothing more than dim "PAR cans" (reflector lamps in scoop-shaped metal shields; some schools used to make these on the cheap out of coffee cans, hence the name!) So your strategy will depend a lot on the layout of your particular theater. That means I can't give you much specific advice, but here are a few ideas:
-- You're going to want to shoot a lot. (How many times is your daughter going to have her first lead in a musical?) If Tri-X is what you want to use, go out today and buy a brick of it. Don't worry, it will be a good investment. Are you sure I can't talk you into trying a few rolls of T-Max P3200? If you rate it at 800 or 1000, most labs will be able to process it at their normal times, and it will give you a useful speed boost without adding contrast. (Pushed Tri-X will be sharper and finer-grained, but you won't get as much shadow detail, and that's critical in theater shooting.)
-- Plan to attend every performance. (But you were going to do that anyway, right?) That will give you the chance to apply your experience to future shooting, and to sit in different parts of the theater to try different angles.
-- Try to scout the theater beforehand and pick out seats that are close to the stage and have unobstructed sight lines. Usually these will be on an aisle. If there are two side aisles rather than one center aisle, seats on the outside of these aisles will be nearly ideal. If there's just a center aisle, simply pick a seat on either side of it.
-- Two or three rows back is probably better than the front row, so you won't be looking up the performers' noses, but unobstructed sight lines are critical, so take the front row if there's no other way to get a clear view. A few seats right or left of dead center is better than dead center; the lighting will have a bit more dimension that way.
-- Don't worry about camera support; a theater seat is a great "tripod." Sit in the seat, brace your elbows on the arms, and you'll have good support. Better yet, stake out the seat in front of you and rest your elbows on the seatback. (If you've got a short rug-rat-age child who likes theater, bring him/her along to 'reserve' this seat for you.)
-- Borrowing a spot meter is a great idea if you can get it organized today, but if you can't, don't worry excessively about exposure. As long as you're close to the stage, your built-in meter should give you good guidance. Because the lights are focused on the performers rather than the scenery, you'll probably want to use at least 1/3 stop less exposure than the meter indicates; if the backgrounds are especially dark, try -2/3 stop; and if the production uses follow-spots (gaaahhh!) on the leads, you may need to go -1-and-a-third stops or more. Obviously, bracket like heck during your daughter's big numbers.
-- If you're worried about disturbing other parents, try to buddy up with some of them, maybe by agreeing to try to take pictures of their kids as well, in return for their being tolerant of you hogging the good seats and possibly blocking somebody's view occasionally. Everybody tries to take pictures of their kids during a performance with whatever awful camera they have, and almost none of those pictures ever turns out well, so if your shots are even marginally decent, people will be tearfully grateful later.
-- About that 90mm lens -- Don't assume you can't use it, just wait for moments when there isn't much action in the scene, then brace your elbows, breathe easily, and just shoot while focusing your mind on calm, relaxed confidence that you'll get sharp pictures. You probably will! One of the pictures on my gallery page was made during a performance (not a rehearsal) with a 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit.
So... take gear you're familiar with; think and plan ahead a bit so you'll be calm during the performances; then just relax, enjoy the show, and shoot whenever you see something that looks good. Now, go out and buy that brick of Tri-X so you'll be ready for tonight, okay? It's show time!!
Assuming you can sit reasonably close to the stage, the lenses you've got should work well. The 50/1.4 is a must-take, and the 90/2.8 is worth a try, although it will restrict your shooting opportunities somewhat. The vast majority of my best stage photos have been shot within this focal length range.
As Kim said, it would have been a bit easier if you could have attended a dress rehearsal instead of a performance, since you'd have been free to move around without worry about blocking other patrons' view. But if opening night is tonight, you'll just have to do what you can!
High school theaters vary a lot -- I've been in some that are huge and have state-of-the-art lighting gear, and others that are tiny and lit by nothing more than dim "PAR cans" (reflector lamps in scoop-shaped metal shields; some schools used to make these on the cheap out of coffee cans, hence the name!) So your strategy will depend a lot on the layout of your particular theater. That means I can't give you much specific advice, but here are a few ideas:
-- You're going to want to shoot a lot. (How many times is your daughter going to have her first lead in a musical?) If Tri-X is what you want to use, go out today and buy a brick of it. Don't worry, it will be a good investment. Are you sure I can't talk you into trying a few rolls of T-Max P3200? If you rate it at 800 or 1000, most labs will be able to process it at their normal times, and it will give you a useful speed boost without adding contrast. (Pushed Tri-X will be sharper and finer-grained, but you won't get as much shadow detail, and that's critical in theater shooting.)
-- Plan to attend every performance. (But you were going to do that anyway, right?) That will give you the chance to apply your experience to future shooting, and to sit in different parts of the theater to try different angles.
-- Try to scout the theater beforehand and pick out seats that are close to the stage and have unobstructed sight lines. Usually these will be on an aisle. If there are two side aisles rather than one center aisle, seats on the outside of these aisles will be nearly ideal. If there's just a center aisle, simply pick a seat on either side of it.
-- Two or three rows back is probably better than the front row, so you won't be looking up the performers' noses, but unobstructed sight lines are critical, so take the front row if there's no other way to get a clear view. A few seats right or left of dead center is better than dead center; the lighting will have a bit more dimension that way.
-- Don't worry about camera support; a theater seat is a great "tripod." Sit in the seat, brace your elbows on the arms, and you'll have good support. Better yet, stake out the seat in front of you and rest your elbows on the seatback. (If you've got a short rug-rat-age child who likes theater, bring him/her along to 'reserve' this seat for you.)
-- Borrowing a spot meter is a great idea if you can get it organized today, but if you can't, don't worry excessively about exposure. As long as you're close to the stage, your built-in meter should give you good guidance. Because the lights are focused on the performers rather than the scenery, you'll probably want to use at least 1/3 stop less exposure than the meter indicates; if the backgrounds are especially dark, try -2/3 stop; and if the production uses follow-spots (gaaahhh!) on the leads, you may need to go -1-and-a-third stops or more. Obviously, bracket like heck during your daughter's big numbers.
-- If you're worried about disturbing other parents, try to buddy up with some of them, maybe by agreeing to try to take pictures of their kids as well, in return for their being tolerant of you hogging the good seats and possibly blocking somebody's view occasionally. Everybody tries to take pictures of their kids during a performance with whatever awful camera they have, and almost none of those pictures ever turns out well, so if your shots are even marginally decent, people will be tearfully grateful later.
-- About that 90mm lens -- Don't assume you can't use it, just wait for moments when there isn't much action in the scene, then brace your elbows, breathe easily, and just shoot while focusing your mind on calm, relaxed confidence that you'll get sharp pictures. You probably will! One of the pictures on my gallery page was made during a performance (not a rehearsal) with a 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit.
So... take gear you're familiar with; think and plan ahead a bit so you'll be calm during the performances; then just relax, enjoy the show, and shoot whenever you see something that looks good. Now, go out and buy that brick of Tri-X so you'll be ready for tonight, okay? It's show time!!
Pablito
coco frío
jlw has some very nice shots in his gallery and a lot of good advice; it's true there is much to be said for using equipment you know. But one of the advantages of the longer lens is that you can get tight shots showing facial experssions. And a long lens requires some support. I have found a monopod to work well, even from the seats. Or a small tripod with the legs rubber-banded together at the bottom to make a sort-of monopod.
if you can shoot from the wings, as in some of jlw's shots, then by all means Leica is ideal.
if you can shoot from the wings, as in some of jlw's shots, then by all means Leica is ideal.
Haonavy
Photojournalist
I shot an entire production of the Wizard of Oz about 2 weeks ago with a 200mm 2.8 and assorted other smaller lenses. The only trick is knowing when to capture motion and when to freeze it and the ability to do so at will.
Somone said something about having the 2.8 being "limiting". Well, honestly, my autofocus had trouble keeping up with some of the motion on stage sometimes and I was almost thankful for a 2.8. In fact, with another one of my 50mm 1.4, I shot around 2 or 2.8 for some of it so my camera wouldn't have to work as hard and I wouldn't miss a shot because of a missed focus.
I used a D2x with a number of primes, but especially a 200mm f/2.8 shooting at around 400ISO the lighting was STILL up around 1/125 and even did FINE at 1/250. Stage lights are often INSANELY bright. Of course, I don't know what your situation is, but... often stage lights are pretty good for photographers.
Good luck with this stuff. I wish I had a range of lenses like that to use for Leicas instead of just Nikon... haha...
Somone said something about having the 2.8 being "limiting". Well, honestly, my autofocus had trouble keeping up with some of the motion on stage sometimes and I was almost thankful for a 2.8. In fact, with another one of my 50mm 1.4, I shot around 2 or 2.8 for some of it so my camera wouldn't have to work as hard and I wouldn't miss a shot because of a missed focus.
I used a D2x with a number of primes, but especially a 200mm f/2.8 shooting at around 400ISO the lighting was STILL up around 1/125 and even did FINE at 1/250. Stage lights are often INSANELY bright. Of course, I don't know what your situation is, but... often stage lights are pretty good for photographers.
Good luck with this stuff. I wish I had a range of lenses like that to use for Leicas instead of just Nikon... haha...
like2fiddle
Curious
jlw, very nice gallery and thank you for all that very useful advice. We don't have much in the way of camera shops in my neck of the woods so no Tmax 3200, the fastest I can find is Ilford 1600. I think I feel alright about pushing Tri-x.
I did not mention earlier, but tonight is in fact the dress rehearsal. I should have a fair amount of freedom to move about. The actual performances are tomorrow (2) and Saturday. I will be at all except the Friday morning performance for area school children. The production is in a professional theatre so the stage lighting is excellent. The school rents this place for two weeks annually to do a musical production. The kids who do tech. are there from 6 am to the end of rehearsal every day (usually 9:30 pm) just tweaking the lighting and sound. It's quite an experience for all involved, it's a two-week intensive with no school, just total concentration on the musical. The kids do everything from soliciting advertising, to creating the playbill, to the music (I have a daughter playing piano and violin for the musical), to supplying meals for all, making the set, costumes, etc.
I have to check it out tonight, but my recollection from last year is that we were at about chest level with the actors when seated in the fourth or fifth row. There's a large center section and two wings as well as a large balcony and boxes. My preference is to sit on an aisle so that I can scoot out there if necessary to take unobstructed photos.
Thanks again everyone for your help, and Haonavy, the production here too is "The Wizard of Oz". Pablito, the current plan is for my son to use his SLR and long lens on a tripod from the balcony. He does quite good work with his equipment when he is motivated.
I did not mention earlier, but tonight is in fact the dress rehearsal. I should have a fair amount of freedom to move about. The actual performances are tomorrow (2) and Saturday. I will be at all except the Friday morning performance for area school children. The production is in a professional theatre so the stage lighting is excellent. The school rents this place for two weeks annually to do a musical production. The kids who do tech. are there from 6 am to the end of rehearsal every day (usually 9:30 pm) just tweaking the lighting and sound. It's quite an experience for all involved, it's a two-week intensive with no school, just total concentration on the musical. The kids do everything from soliciting advertising, to creating the playbill, to the music (I have a daughter playing piano and violin for the musical), to supplying meals for all, making the set, costumes, etc.
I have to check it out tonight, but my recollection from last year is that we were at about chest level with the actors when seated in the fourth or fifth row. There's a large center section and two wings as well as a large balcony and boxes. My preference is to sit on an aisle so that I can scoot out there if necessary to take unobstructed photos.
Thanks again everyone for your help, and Haonavy, the production here too is "The Wizard of Oz". Pablito, the current plan is for my son to use his SLR and long lens on a tripod from the balcony. He does quite good work with his equipment when he is motivated.
fishtek
Don
Good luck with the shoot. Roger! I assume we'll get to see some of the work?
Best Regards!
Don
Best Regards!
Don
like2fiddle
Curious
Don, I don't have a negative scanner, but it's on my wanted list. I do have access to a flatbed however, so maybe it's time to get my feet wet with that and some sort of scanning software. I'll at least post here after the weekend to say how things went.
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
I used to do this a lot but it was always during the dress rehearsal. I pretty much could go anywhere shoot anywhere. A ladder was my best friend.
This was before I was in love with rangefinders and a fast zoom/DSLR allowed for consistant work and a fast work flow.
If I did it now I think the 75 lux would be a dream lens for that application. It's my favorite lens when shooting bands as well.
This was before I was in love with rangefinders and a fast zoom/DSLR allowed for consistant work and a fast work flow.
If I did it now I think the 75 lux would be a dream lens for that application. It's my favorite lens when shooting bands as well.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
like2fiddle said:
Once you've found your feet with stage photography, this whole production sounds like an awesome opportunity for a long-term photo project! Start with the rehearsals, shoot kids building sets, sewing costumes, hanging lights, running boards, going around and selling ads, etc., etc., then up through the actual performance and after into strike, cast party, and tearful farewells. Then edit up your best shots, sequence them, and put them on a website, or maybe assemble them into one of those iPhoto books and let parents order copies at cost.
Then run for mayor or whatever you fancy, because if your pictures are good and you make them available, every parent of every kid is going to think you're the greatest guy in the world. And in your world, at least, they may be right!
like2fiddle
Curious
jlw said:
Well, perhaps next year for the whole story. Last year was awesome, JC Superstar, and the year before, Chicago - I would not have wanted my teenaged daughter in some of those costumes! As I mentioned before, this is a great experience for the kids.
I'm looking forward to just doing the best I can with what I have to work with, the major limitation by far being ME
. I think this particular production would do well to be shot in color, but I just don't deal well with Tungsten lighting and color film. I know I can rely on Tri-X and that's a good part of the battle. Oh, and cmogi10, yes a 75 lux would be a fine lens for this.
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
like2fiddle said:Well, perhaps next year for the whole story. Last year was awesome, JC Superstar, and the year before, Chicago - I would not have wanted my teenaged daughter in some of those costumes! As I mentioned before, this is a great experience for the kids.
I'm looking forward to just doing the best I can with what I have to work with, the major limitation by far being ME
Oh, and cmogi10, yes a 75 lux would be a fine lens for this.
That's a good exscuse to buy one right?
P
pshinkaw
Guest
I suggest going to a dress rehearsal so you can pick out the best scenes and angles ahead of time. It's also helpful for planning out the exposure settings. It's a real pain when you think a good scene is coming up, but you don'yt realize that the stage lighting will be cut.
I like using either my M2 or a Kodak Retina like this IIIc.
I like using either my M2 or a Kodak Retina like this IIIc.
Attachments
topoxforddoc
Established
I like shooting stage shows and music. I'm not a pro, merely a doctor who is probably paid too much and like Leicas (to use). If I'm shooting film, I'll use my 75 lux or 90 tele-elmarit - HP5 rated at ASA 400 and shoot mostly at 1/30th F2.8 or 1/60th at F2. The exposure latitude of most B/W films is excellent and most of the time I don't bother metering too much.
My favourite setup for shooting stage work though is my R9/DMR. Initially I used my 80-200/4 ROM set at 200/4 with the DMR at ASA400 - 2EV. Earlier this year I bought an ex demo 180 cron and that is just something else. Here are some shots I took of a Charity Revue performed by my oncology colleagues.
Good Luck
Charlie
My favourite setup for shooting stage work though is my R9/DMR. Initially I used my 80-200/4 ROM set at 200/4 with the DMR at ASA400 - 2EV. Earlier this year I bought an ex demo 180 cron and that is just something else. Here are some shots I took of a Charity Revue performed by my oncology colleagues.
Good Luck
Charlie
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pphuang
brain drain...
My kids are very active in theater, so I've tried many different set-ups over the years. For me, the most consistent results are with a DSLR set to spot metering and a long, fast lens (2.8). I meter on the faces, set eveything on automatic, and then just keep my eyes through the viewfinder and concentrate on "the moment." I find that if I have to fiddle with the settings, bracket my exposures, etc., I'll often miss the best moments, but that's obviously a personal thing, and may not necessarily work for everyone Here's a few...
Here's a few...
itf
itchy trigger finger
If its a dress rehearsal, do it as Josef Koudelka did it in his early days and move among the performers during the rehearsal. I remember reading about it somewhere.