don't trust Paypal (rant and warning)

[Nick R.]

for anything of value. The only exception is if it's sold as-is, and prior to shipping, the buyer accepts that the seller is not responsible for damages during shipping. In that case I might go with default insurance, but would still track, and require delivery confirmation. I pay it even if the buyer doesn't want to, since as the seller, it's my responsibility to get the goods to the buyer in the condition stated, and in the timeframe I've promised, after receiving their funds in good faith.

How, exactly, are you responsible for the post office?

 

[Terence T]

I just went through a similar episode with paypal and a dishonest buyer. I'm out almost $600 and no signs of that amount being recovered. It's a sad fact that paypal is a necessary evil on eboy, I've seen poor sales from the time I stopped accepting paypal but I guess with this loss, accepting paypal was equally bad, or worse.

 

[David Murphy]

As a seller, the fine print from PreyPal (or is it PrayPal ?) generally holds sellers accountable for proving delivery and the delivery addresses must be also "confirmed" for seller protection.

Another common fallacy out there is tracking. There is no tracking with USPS shipping -- only delivery confirmation. USPS does not have tracking now and never did (please ask them if you don't believe me).

UPS/FedEx have tracking, but I have heard unconfirmed allegations that their customer tracking systems are based on "statistical models" rather than actual package label scans.

 

[Nick R.]

As a seller, the fine print from PreyPal (or is it PrayPal ?) generally holds sellers accountable for proving delivery and the delivery addresses must be also "confirmed" for seller protection.

Another common fallacy out there is tracking. There is no tracking with USPS shipping -- only delivery confirmation. USPS does not have tracking now and never did (please ask them if you don't believe me).

UPS/FedEx have tracking, but I have heard unconfirmed allegations that their customer tracking systems are based on "statistical models" rather than actual package label scans.

If you enter the number from your insurance receipt at the USPS website, it tells you at which facility the package has been scanned in route to its destination and finally when it has been delivered. Isn't that tracking?

 

[Terence T]

Say hello to Google Checkout:
http://checkout.google.com

Finally someone who can compete with what PayPal does (to people) 🙂

Dave

I don't think Google Checkout works the same way Paypal does. I looked around and it seems it's only geared for online retailers that want to integrate Google Checkout as one of their payment options into their own web based checkout systems.

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

If you enter the number from your insurance receipt at the USPS website, it tells you at which facility the package has been scanned in route to its destination and finally when it has been delivered. Isn't that tracking?

USPS 'tracking' is notoriously unreliable. As evidenced by how often INSURED packages I send are dropped off at their destination without a signature (which is required for insured packages).

For anything over $50, always send FEDEX or UPS. Their tracking is updated and for real. Needless to say, always insure, insure, insure !!!

There are honest sellers who don't ship with these precautions, but they are ones who haven't had a lost package before. And sooner or later, they will.

 

[David Murphy]

Well this the last I will say on this and then be quiet. I ship a lot and the only shipper I have found to be honest and serve the small shipper well is USPS. The biggest shipping loses I have incurred have been with FedEx, with UPS a close second. UPS and Fed Ex have overcharged me before or tried to, and FedEx once even back charged my credit card AFTER a package was in transit (a "surchage"). Using UPS or FedEx for international shipping without your own customs broker is nearly impossible.

I don't like insurance, even though I often buy it. Why ? Because the claims adjuster is also the party paying the claim. Guess whose fault the loss usually turns out to be ? There is a ton of paperwork and collecting can take months. FedEx pays claims faster -- they usually put up a short, nasty fight first.

In summary: Thank God for USPS ! -- I love them !

 

[stesm]

Perhaps I'm just lucky, I've completed over 200 transactions on ebay using paypal with only a couple of minor glitches. Neither of them worth going into here. I am a careful buyer. I read the feedbacks and if I find anything I don't like- I don't bid. As a seller, I protect myself with the ebay/paypal (epal? paybay?) guidelines. Ship only to confirmed addresses, no personal or company checks and if they pay with postal money order I cash it at the PO to pay for shipping. I always use delivery confirmation. Never a lost package either direction but "tracking" with USPS is usually 12-24 hours after the parcel is delivered. I've probably had more difficulty with the people involved than the system. Hope I didn't just jinx it...

 

[tkluck]

Ebay always seemed like a crap shoot. Buying literaly sight unseen from a stranger. (in the Ukrane yet?)
Like any crap game don't lay down any more than you're willing to risk loosing, buying or selling.
And like a crap game, leaving a balence in your paypal account is rather like asking Nathan Detroit or Dave the Dude hold your wallet while you take a leak.

 

[Sumo_du_Jour]

My experience is similar to Joe Friday.
Sold a Nokton 50mm to a guy in Taiwan. Money received, item sent standard post (buyers decision after discussion of options).

After a month an a half there's no lens at the buyers end. We're overseas for two weeks when the buyer logs a fraud claim. My email system responds automatically to Paypal inquiry with the away dates. Paypal ignore these messages and award the claim and transfer money to the buyer.

I return from holiday, discover all this and can't do squat as the case is closed! back and forth email to the "Protection Services Department" gets nowhere. You're stuck in an endless loop of form based bureaucratic idiocy.

I'll make another post about the missing lens (serial number, etc) in case it pops up for sale.

Paypal is NOT a fine organisation, there is no redress for negligent action on their part.😡

 

[ampguy]

I think you may ...

I think you may ...

want to read and consider heeding Flyfisher Tom's advice, especially the last paragraph.

Put yourself in the shoes of the guy who didn't get his lens -- you have his money, he is getting no response from you. What would you do if you were him? Just as you don't know if he ever received the lens, he doesn't know if you ever sent the lens.

Pay for authenticated tracking on your own dime, and price it into your sale.

My experience is similar to Joe Friday.
Sold a Nokton 50mm to a guy in Taiwan. Money received, item sent standard post (buyers decision after discussion of options).

After a month an a half there's no lens at the buyers end. We're overseas for two weeks when the buyer logs a fraud claim. My email system responds automatically to Paypal inquiry with the away dates. Paypal ignore these messages and award the claim and transfer money to the buyer.

I return from holiday, discover all this and can't do squat as the case is closed! back and forth email to the "Protection Services Department" gets nowhere. You're stuck in an endless loop of form based bureaucratic idiocy.

I'll make another post about the missing lens (serial number, etc) in case it pops up for sale.

Paypal is NOT a fine organisation, there is no redress for negligent action on their part.😡

 

[varjag]

Pay pal is fine. It works well for most people. The subject of this thread isn't really fair.

Paypal is fine as long as it works. Check out http://paypalsucks.com/ for different perspective from less lucky users.

 

[FrankS]

want to read and consider heeding Flyfisher Tom's advice, especially the last paragraph.

Put yourself in the shoes of the guy who didn't get his lens -- you have his money, he is getting no response from you. What would you do if you were him? Just as you don't know if he ever received the lens, he doesn't know if you ever sent the lens.

Pay for authenticated tracking on your own dime, and price it into your sale.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25394

 

[Ash]

one last thing, PAYpal... not SELLpal... everything is inclined towards buyers, because thats where the money is coming from.

doesn't matter about the welfare of the seller, cos paypal takes their cut before it even reaches the seller account.

 

[Issy]

If you enter the number from your insurance receipt at the USPS website, it tells you at which facility the package has been scanned in route to its destination and finally when it has been delivered. Isn't that tracking?

And if it is lost in transit (no delivery scan), there is no way to trace where it went lost. Been there, done that.

 

[smudwhisk]

As a seller, the fine print from PreyPal (or is it PrayPal ?) generally holds sellers accountable for proving delivery and the delivery addresses must be also "confirmed" for seller protection.

I've recently sold some items on E(vil)bay UK and this time insisted that I would only accept paypal to confirmed addresses, otherwise payment would be returned and they would have to pay by cheque (and failure to do this would mean nonpayment). I also gave them the cheque payment option.

Out of 4 sales, 3 paid by paypal to confirmed addresses (in fact one got dropped off since it was only a 2 mile detour from my daily commute to work and I refunded some of their postage costs) and the last has paid by cheque. I also only post by special delivery, or recorded delivery if the item is cheap, so it can be tracked and is insured. As has already been said, if you won't pay the postage costs, don't bid!

Confirmed addresses at least give you a little more protection as you would hope that if it's been confirmed they've had several items posted to it. The buyer who paid by cheque was a newbie so wouldn't have I suspect had a confirmed address.

One annoyance I have with paypal is when you need a refund from a seller who has already spent the balance from their ebay account. I've had two sellers in the last 12 months who have sent a new payment through and cost me fees rather than refunded through the original transaction. Both have said they couldn't refund through the original - I'm assuming this is because they'd already spent the balance. In this last case they got a rocket of a mail from me because the item was faulty (and they'd said they would accept a return in this case because they coudn't test it) but they held onto £3 postage costs for an item that cost 30p to send and a very small new jiffy bag. So not only was I out of pocket the postage and return postage costs but also 81p from paypal. In the end (as they'd already left me feedback and I expect were worred about whether I would leave them negative) they refunded the postage and extra to cover any paypal fees. While I have sympathy with them because they bought and then sold on the item in good faith, I didn't see why I should cover their paypal and ebay fees and then have to purchase the same item from another dealer at a higher price. On this occasion I came out with no loss, but the first time it happened I was out of pocket about £10! Not a great amount but irritating.

Paypal is a necessary evil unfortunately but they really do need to do something about it.

 

[raid]

I make it a habit to empty my paypal account. I am not sure if this actually protects my money in my bank account or not.

Raid