GaryLH
Veteran
Here is a comparison between the DP2 Quattro and the Sony A7 using Konica 50f2 M mount
The Konica 50f2//right now I don't remember the fstop I used..
The DP2 Quattro - shot wide open at f2. Small size RAW.
Not sure if u are going to c it in these small 1024x1024 max jpgs..but the quattro shots even though they are equiv to no better than 15mp (foveon speak) only carries about 5MP of data vs the 24MP of data from the Sony, the quattro shots are sharper.
Gary
The Konica 50f2//right now I don't remember the fstop I used..
The DP2 Quattro - shot wide open at f2. Small size RAW.
Not sure if u are going to c it in these small 1024x1024 max jpgs..but the quattro shots even though they are equiv to no better than 15mp (foveon speak) only carries about 5MP of data vs the 24MP of data from the Sony, the quattro shots are sharper.
Gary
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Initially I looked at the Sony shot and thought wow .... looked at the Quattro image and was initially disappointed. The Sigma example seems over exposed a bit but there is definitely a lot of detail there. After staring at the Quattro image for a while the Sony example looks mushy.
maddoc
... likes film again.
The top one looks good on my screen, the lower one looks overexposed and is missing some colors in the highlights.
jmilkins
Digited User
interesting - thanks Gary, as I could see myself with either of these. The out of camera jpg colours are certainly different too. So many things to consider including ergonomics etc.
GaryLH
Veteran
The over exposure is my fault... 
on the Sigma shot, prior shot (different scene) needed plus exposure comp and I forgot to adjust it back prior to this shot.
Gary
on the Sigma shot, prior shot (different scene) needed plus exposure comp and I forgot to adjust it back prior to this shot. Gary
lynnb
Veteran
in these two shots - and for this subject matter - I prefer the Sony's "emotional" (saturated, painterly) colour rendition, even if the foveon appears to have more accurate colours in at least some hues, if not all. I'd try to balance/match the colour temperature of both shots for the barrel on the left side, to allow an easier comparison (as well as re-shooting for same exposure in both shots).
Thanks for posting this, it's interesting.
I've always admired foveon output, but in this comparison, I like the Sony, despite its lower apparent resolution and "artistic" colour palette.
Thanks for posting this, it's interesting.
I've always admired foveon output, but in this comparison, I like the Sony, despite its lower apparent resolution and "artistic" colour palette.
GaryLH
Veteran
This was actually one of the few times I remember to take a shot w/ the other camera just to show the differences and I forgot to change the exposure comp back to normal on the Sigma
. The difference in sharpness even from the equiv of a 5mp sensor by using the ooc of Sigma in small raw is pretty easy to c on my iMac. The Sigma wins...
I have used the a7 w/ a lot of difference lenses now including native ones, w/o the Sigma around (Merrill or Quattro), the Sony would be perfectly acceptable...the Sony has much better dynamic range. When the scene has too much dynamic range..I need to work w/ spp (exposure fill operation) to get the shadow back (raw mode) before I have to make any adjust w/ the Sony. The Sony is maybe 1-2 stops better in certain situation then the Sigma..
Almost everything I hated about the UI of my Sony Nex 5n has been fixed on the new a7 family. Af performance is better than my Fuji xp1 or xe1. Slightly better than my Panasonic gx7 when in phase detect mode but slightly slower in contrast (contrast detect is more accurate, so I tend to use it most of the time).
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
Forgot to mention... To me the Quattro in large raw mode is actually not as sharp as the small raw when the subject has extremely fine detail changes over a somewhat large constant surface of color like the tomato example posted a while ago. The large would tend to smooth some of the imperfections out..most likely due to the 4-1-1 (4 blue to one green and one red color receiver) algo being employed that does not exist when using small raw, since small raw appears to map the average of the 4 blues into red and green value layers creating a 1-1-1 effect.
If u are ok w/ slower af and lower iso performance, the Merrill is the better camera for those that want the better detail and higher resolution.. If u need a more general solution w/ better af and much higher iso, the Quattro is better. There two biggest issues I still c w/ it vs the Merrill..
- the Quattro compared to the Merrill is the shape. Some people will never like it ir be able adapt.
- the stupid sd card door
Even w/ the better af, it is behind all my other non-Sigma cameras in terms of af speed.
Gary
If u are ok w/ slower af and lower iso performance, the Merrill is the better camera for those that want the better detail and higher resolution.. If u need a more general solution w/ better af and much higher iso, the Quattro is better. There two biggest issues I still c w/ it vs the Merrill..
- the Quattro compared to the Merrill is the shape. Some people will never like it ir be able adapt.
- the stupid sd card door
Even w/ the better af, it is behind all my other non-Sigma cameras in terms of af speed.
Gary
Michael Markey
Veteran
Quattro shot without a doubt for me.
Samouraï
Well-known
The overexposure is unfortunate, but one can still see how much clearer the Quattro shot appears. The A7 shot definitely looks mushy, but also painterly and attractive. It has the low pass filter and only 24mp (Bayer MP, that is), so of course it will look mushy compared to the Quattro's extreme resolution. I can't tell which I favor. But the Quattro seems as though it has more to work with given proper exposure. Though I'd imagine the dynamic range of the A7 is also a bit better than the Quattro as well.
There are things I've gone to shoot with my A7R and couldn't capture. Like light fog that I thought could only be seen with the naked eye. I was testing cameras at the time. My DP3 Merrill could see it, and it looked very similar to what I was seeing with my own eyes.
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Those red flowers to the left of the sunflowers (in the upper right corner) are very interesting. They appear Red-Orange in the A7 shot, but fuchsia in the Quattro shot. At least on my screen. Which do you think was more accurate? Of course everything is a little warmer in the A7 shot, but the reds have always been a point of contention between Bayer and Foveon sensors (and indeed digital sensors in general).
There are things I've gone to shoot with my A7R and couldn't capture. Like light fog that I thought could only be seen with the naked eye. I was testing cameras at the time. My DP3 Merrill could see it, and it looked very similar to what I was seeing with my own eyes.
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Those red flowers to the left of the sunflowers (in the upper right corner) are very interesting. They appear Red-Orange in the A7 shot, but fuchsia in the Quattro shot. At least on my screen. Which do you think was more accurate? Of course everything is a little warmer in the A7 shot, but the reds have always been a point of contention between Bayer and Foveon sensors (and indeed digital sensors in general).
GaryLH
Veteran
When I have time.. I will go back into spp and do a -1 exposure adjust. If I remember right the ec was accidentally left at +1.
My color memory is terrible. In general I find the Quattro is closer when shooting in small raw mode....but take that with a grain of salt since for fine color tuning I always ask my wife (she is a color consultant by trade ). Reds though on the Quattro in certain situations can be off though. Other times they are just fine. A lot depends on lighting conditions, iso 100-200 type shots I cannot remember seeing a problem. Reds in shady situations tend to be off sometimes.
Gary
My color memory is terrible. In general I find the Quattro is closer when shooting in small raw mode....but take that with a grain of salt since for fine color tuning I always ask my wife (she is a color consultant by trade
). Reds though on the Quattro in certain situations can be off though. Other times they are just fine. A lot depends on lighting conditions, iso 100-200 type shots I cannot remember seeing a problem. Reds in shady situations tend to be off sometimes. Gary
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
When I have time.. I will go back into spp and do a -1 exposure adjust. If I remember right the ec was accidentally left at +1.
My color memory is terrible. In general I find the Quattro is closer when shooting in small raw mode....but take that with a grain of salt since for fine color tuning I always ask my wife (she is a color consultant by trade
Gary
I've yet to use a digital camera that can figure out red ... with my D700 possibly being the worst!
V-12
Well-known
In comparisons like this it is a bit short sighted just saying one has better colour or better exposure than the other because those things can usually be adjusted. The insight comes from looking at the potential in each image, so if you just tweak this or that a bit it's likely to come out the way you like it. And on that basis the DP2 looks like it has bags of potential and on a par with the A7 in this instance. Of course the DP2 is left behind when you try to change the lens.
V
V
Addy101
Well-known
Too bad the Sigma picture is over-exposed, it makes a good comparison very difficult. For what it is worth, I think the A7 shows its full-frame character. Also, I would choose dynamic range over a lot of other characteristics. But even more important, I almost smell the flowers with the Sony, while I don't with the Sigma. I think that is important.
A lot of people say "better colour or better exposure" is not/less relevant because "those things can usually be adjusted" in post processing. Though true, if you take the best possible picture PP is so much easier and the end result so much better. To me, the first part is very important - I don't like PP.
This is the Quatro? it should show more details. We know that a Foveon show's details like a 1.5 times higher Bayer sensor. The Quatro should show comparable detail as a 30mp Bayer sensor, as the A7 is only 24mp, your findings are in line with expectations.
A lot of people say "better colour or better exposure" is not/less relevant because "those things can usually be adjusted" in post processing. Though true, if you take the best possible picture PP is so much easier and the end result so much better. To me, the first part is very important - I don't like PP.
This is the Quatro? it should show more details. We know that a Foveon show's details like a 1.5 times higher Bayer sensor. The Quatro should show comparable detail as a 30mp Bayer sensor, as the A7 is only 24mp, your findings are in line with expectations.
GaryLH
Veteran
Ahh actually the Quattro shot is in small raw mode which is using a quarter of the available blue pixel locations.. It is this comparible to shooting w/ a pre-Merrill DP camera.. I was not shooting in large raw mode which would have been using the 20 million blue photo sites u were referring to.
The sigma cameras have their strengths as well as their weaknesses. So does the Sony a7. There are situations I would rather not use the sigma in and same w/ the sony or Fuji...but that does not mean that they won't do ok in those situations..
Gary
Ps. I don't need to print large so small raw is good enough for me. When u shoot in small raw, u are back to 1-1-1 relationship in terms of RGB color as opposed to large raw which is a 4-1-1 relationship.. Small raw eliminates the pseudo color algo possibility of how four blue color sites map into a single stacked larger green and red site.
The sigma cameras have their strengths as well as their weaknesses. So does the Sony a7. There are situations I would rather not use the sigma in and same w/ the sony or Fuji...but that does not mean that they won't do ok in those situations..
Gary
Ps. I don't need to print large so small raw is good enough for me. When u shoot in small raw, u are back to 1-1-1 relationship in terms of RGB color as opposed to large raw which is a 4-1-1 relationship.. Small raw eliminates the pseudo color algo possibility of how four blue color sites map into a single stacked larger green and red site.
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Eric T
Well-known
Can anyone do a Sony A7r comparison to Sigma Merrill or Quattro?
f16sunshine
Moderator
At this size the Sony images look un-naturally saturated and slightly magenta/red cast on my little 11" air.
I don't have the bigger computer with the more accurate screen at the moment.
The Sigma image reminds me of Kodak Gold.
I don't have the bigger computer with the more accurate screen at the moment.
The Sigma image reminds me of Kodak Gold.