Dutch Photographer arrested after shooting in public

True, but the law clearly states they have to have a good reason... AND if anyone should abide the law, it would be the cops don't you think?
 
certifiable said:
if anyone should abide the law, it would be the cops don't you think?
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Clearly you have never been outside of Europe.... (I'm joking, but I do NOT have that expectation. I agree with the "should" part of it, but reality is not on your side.)

I'd have tried to be cooperative. But I've never had an issue with police while photographing. I have been asked about the purpose of pictures, and I have handed out business cards.
 
degruyl said:
Clearly you have never been outside of Europe.... .
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Because every police officer in europe is law abiding? Have you ever been here? ;)
It's not wetehr they are or not, I'm just saying they SHOULD. But if everyone in the world was law abiding, we wouldn't even need cops so...
 
I have, yes. It is the expectation of them being law abiding that seems to be uniquely associated with western europe.
 
I don't expect them to be anything, they are human after all so they suffer the same flaws as we all do, but I think they should be law abiding, but I think everyone should be law abiding, would make life a lot simpler...
Thinking someone should be something and expecting someone to be something are 2 different things in my opinion...
 
cambolt said:
If I have nothing to hide then why am I hiding my ID? It's just wasting both my time and the cop's time.
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A lot of people that had nothing to hide have been arrested, and many of those for many years. The "if you have nothing to hide" is a very weak argument, because whenever people in power have the power to arrest you, and once their mind is made up, they will find a way, whether you had anything to hide or not.
 
Although in the short term, just showing your ID is an easy way out but long term, you're doing society (and yourself) a lot of harm. That is the practical reality. Standing up for your rights is not an idealist's exercise.
 
Confidence goes a long way.

In India once, somewhere I shouldn't have been...

Policeman (to our Tibetan minder)"Have they got permits to be here?"

Minder: "Of course they have. D'you think they'd be walking around with cameras like that if they hadn't?"

No ID shown.

Of course, it's a good idea to look like a tourist or casual visitor. Taping up your camera and being furtive is likely to make 'em suspicious.

Cheers,

R.
 
It may be a question of perception.
In some parts of the world, Policemen are entitled to ask for you to ID yourself.
If you are used to it (I am) the behavior of the photographer may well seem unnecessarily confrontational.
If in Holland Policemen never ever ask anyone to identify unless after a crime is committed, I can understand the guy.

What amazes me is the common thought that fighting terrorism can be done effectively through random control by regular cops. What are the chances...
 
sanmich said:
It may be a question of perception.
In some parts of the world, Policemen are entitled to ask for you to ID yourself.
If you are used to it (I am) the behavior of the photographer may well seem unnecessarily confrontational.
If in Holland Policemen never ever ask anyone to identify unless after a crime is committed, I can understand the guy.

What amazes me is the common thought that fighting terrorism can be done effectively through random control by regular cops. What are the chances...
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Random control, virtually zero, but I have seen it alleged that of terrorist attacks known to have been thwarted, the vast majority have been averted via old-fashioned police work via police forces, NOT via expensive 'specialists'.

Of course real figures are impossible to come by, and of course it's in the interests of the 'specialists' to keep the rest of us frightened via assurances that "if you knew what we know, your blood would run cold."

As far as I know, you are required to carry (and show) ID in France, but the only time I've been asked is once at a routine vehicle check (licence, registration, insurance...) I've never been asked in the UK or anywhere else in Europe, even in the old Soviet Union.

Cheers,

R.
 
tom.w.bn said:
Thinking that showing your ID is a risk for democracy is as paranoid as excusing every police action with terrorism.
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Except... I don't mind until it becomes the default position. A policeman in the UK is essentially a citizen in uniform. His only extra right is to arrest on suspicion. He should not be encouraged to have too high an opinion of his own importance: as the old English saying has it, "Give him an inch and he'll take a mile."

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
As far as I know, you are required to carry (and show) ID in France.
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That's what I remembered from being a teenager in Paris in the 80's.
I think it's mandatory from the age of 16.
I was controlled a few times, including once a physical search where I had to explain why I had a small ruler in my pocket (forgot to put it in my bag).
I was really dangerous back then :rolleyes:

[edit] Roger, I don't know if you were in France at that time but there was a whole story around Policemen asking only darker skin people for their paper (Mostly Africans and Arabs). Anti-racists groups acted against the "delit de sale gueule" yielding the Police to also control the papers of grandmothers and nuns to be politically correct.
 
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sanmich said:
That's what I remembered from being a teenager in Paris in the 80's.
I think it's mandatory from the age of 16.
I was controlled a few times, including once a physical search where I had to explain why I had a small ruler in my pocket (forgot to put it in my bag).
I was really dangerous back then :rolleyes:
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Probably afraid you were going to measure his willy...

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Except... I don't mind until it becomes the default position. A policeman in the UK is essentially a citizen in uniform. His only extra right is to arrest on suspicion. He should not be encouraged to have too high an opinion of his own importance: as the old English saying has it, "Give him an inch and he'll take a mile."

Cheers,

R.
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this is exactly my position, and abiding by a request despite the fact that it is an unlawful one is just the start to giving the citizen officers more power than they need. its a slippery slope. on that I think officers in the united states have well slipped down. our officers are none better than military soldiers on the streets who view everyone as the potential enemy as opposed to citizens in which he /she has sworn to protect and defend. its a sad state of affairs, and something as small and seemly insignificant as this is use the first steps in such a thing. always stand up for your rights, no matter how insignificant your rights may seem in such a context. if you aren’t willing to stand up for them, you don’t deserve them. they are there in part to keep the citizens ‘in check’ as n law abiding, and its your job as citizens to keep them in check on the same level. just like government. its a balance. if its unlawful for an officer to ask and ID and he does I would refuse. period. maybe some of you don’t care much for your personal rights and are willing to give them, but not me.

and just to clarify, I have nothing against the police. or the idea of police officers in general so I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea about my position on this.
 
tom.w.bn said:
Thinking that showing your ID is a risk for democracy is as paranoid as excusing every police action with terrorism.
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In normal times, I would agree with you but these are not normal times! Our world is changing and things that were formerly trivial are now taking on more significance...
 
jenhao said:
In normal times, I would agree with you but these are not normal times! Our world is changing and things that were formerly trivial are now taking on more significance...
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Of course they're normal times! Believing otherwise is (a) pandering to terrorists (b) pandering to authoritarian governments and their minions and (c) betraying a severe lack of historical perspective.

Cheers,

R.
 
I'm so glad I live in upstate New York. The only time you need to show ID is when stopped by a cop while driving (driving on public roads is considered a privilege, not a right). They can't stop you if you're taking pics in the middle of the street. If they do, you call the NPPA and the ACLU and they make sure the cop at least gets suspended and screamed at by his boss. If you're a minority, then the cop is going to be working security at Toys-R-Us, if he's lucky enough to get a job ever again. By comparison, they have to give me their full name and badge number on request.

The Dutch people should be livid over this sort of thing and try to get the law changed. Prove how many terrorists have been caught by the law, and I'm sure some liberal legislator will take up the cause.

That said, I've never been stopped while shooting. Mostly because I try not to act skeevy (I'm unemployed now, and I'm still wearing button-down shirts, non-cargo khakis and dress shoes to go get coffee and use the Internet to job hunt). Cops don't even get upset when I'm carrying what are obviously scoped, high-powered rifles to the rod and gun club (the one time I was stopped for that, the cop just wanted to fondle my 1919 Enfield No. 1 rifle).

... oh, and I'm also white. Unless you're acting like a drug dealer or are obviously drunk, nobody bothers you if you are white in my town. I have a few choice words on racial profiling, but I'll save them, as small children might be on here wanting to learn about cameras.
 
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