Early Leitz lenses vs Russian Copies

[cambolt]

Basically I have around $600 to spend on a rangefinder body and lens. Ultimately, I want a leica, however I realise that with my budget this may be far from possible. So basically I see my two options as:

1) Leica M2 or M3 and lens such as Jupiter 8 or Industar 61
2) Bessa and early Leitz lens (summitar etc)

The setup will be my daily shooter, so which of the two varieties of lenses would be more usable? I've seen some Summars for around $220, however these seem pretty unusable due to the lack of coating etc. The cheapest Summitar on evilbay is $325. Would this be more usable than a Russian lens?

Thanks

 

[pschauss]

I started several years ago with an EX condition Leica IIIa from KEH which I used with an Industar-22. The camera body cost me less than $300.

 

[rbiemer]

Cambolt,
I think option 1 makes good sense; I love my Bessa but since you 'ultimately want a Leica", I think it makes sense to get the M and an FSU lens to use while you continue to save for a better lens. I don't have enough knowledge of Leica/Leitz lenses to suggest any specific one but I am currently using a 50 Elmar from the 1950s that I like well and they seem to be fairly reasonable now.
A potentially useful third option would be a Bessa R and a Canon 50/f1.8 lens. As much as I like my FSU lenses, the Canon is, in several measures, a much better lens than most FSU lenses. And you should be able--with some shopping around--to stay with in your budget.
Rob

 

[Stuart John]

These are from a collapsible Industar 22 and a Zorki1

 

[Stuart John]

Industar 26 Fed3

 

[FrankS]

Get an M2 or M3 and then spend $30 on an FSU Elmar clone. Save for a bit and find a Canon 50f1.8 for $200. Once you become wealthy, you can look at Summicrons and Zeiss 50's. Good plan.

 

[oftheherd]

Before RFF became a Leica forum (quickly dons flame retardant suit 😀), stories used to abound of happy members using Leica and FSU lenses, and FSU cameras and Leica lenses, so you should be OK either way. Getting an FSU camera (in good working order) lets you have a backup camera when you get your Leica. Getting a Leica and an FSU lens puts you in your preferred camera while you save for the Leica lens you want (somebody said that already, I know). You just need to make a decision you can live with.

Of course you are hearing this from someone who only owns an FSU Kiev kit.

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

+1 for rbiemer

here's a suggestion:

Beaten up M5 for 200 gbp or 322 usd ( http://www.rangefinderforum.com/pho....php/product/29143/title/leica-m6-m5-m3/cat/3 )

Jupiter 3, 50mm /f1.5 ( http://www.rangefinderforum.com/pho...29383/title/collectionlenses-and-camera/cat/2 )

total 110 + 322 = 432 + 40 for a LTM to Mount adapter = 472.

Cough up $200 for CLA and to fix issues = $672

( i didn't include shipping & handling).

raytoei

 

[shadowfox]

Sometimes I wonder,

Why don't people include M4-P in their initial choice of M-body?

But anyways since you asked,

Jupiter 8 on an M3 that crossed my path about a year ago. Sold the M3 immediately for profit, can't see what's so special about it especially when compared to my M4-P.

 

[FalseDigital]

I'm super happy with my Bessa-R and Jupiter 3 combination. It's not a leica but it's a joy to shoot with and takes quality photos. In the end, isn't that what matters most? Unless you're just a collector. 😛

 

[Roger Hicks]

M-mount (maximum choice down the road) and any lens. Upgrade the lens later. Otherwise you have to upgrade both camera and lens. Sure, there are plenty of rotten 50/2 Jupiters around. But there are a lot of good ones too. More will depend on your talent than on the lens.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Sometimes I wonder,

Why don't people include M4-P in their initial choice of M-body?

Possibly because it's one of the worst Leicas ever made (I bought mine new).

But even a bad Leica is better than most 'good' cameras.

Cheers,

R.

 

[ampguy]

a good, cleaned and adjusted J3 is probably going to cost as much as a clean collapsible single coated elmar. The elmar will have less distortion, but of course, not as fast as the J3. The J3 will also have the sonnar-ish bokeh, the elmar, more leica and neutral.

So for ~$250-$350 you can have a fast FSU lens with a bit of distortion, or a slower Leica lens, with little distortion, but not as fast.

 

[rxmd]

a good, cleaned and adjusted J3 is probably going to cost as much as a clean collapsible single coated elmar. [...] So for ~$250-$350 you can have a fast FSU lens with a bit of distortion, or a slower Leica lens, with little distortion, but not as fast.

Recent price hikes notwithstanding, those prices are much too high for a J-3 - the last J-3 specimens that sold here went for $110 and $170.

 

[Nomad Z]

J-8s can be picked up cheap on eBay - 10 to 30 gbp is doable ($15-50). I-61s were cheap last time I looked (about the same as J-8s), but I don't like the way the mount is designed - it's prone to slop through wear, and isn't easy to fix. J-3s seem to be going up in price - getting expensive enough to consider other options for similar money.

If I was starting again and on a budget, I'd go for the Leica body, and one of the Jupiter lenses. In fact, that's almost what I did do when I started on the Leica path. My first purchase was a IIIf and an Elmar. Then I wanted to try 35mm, so I got a J-12 and an FSU turret finder, followed soon after by an M2 and a J-3. For over a year, my favourite combination was the M2 with the J-12, and sometimes the J-3. I found that I prefer the IIIf purely with a 50mm - not keen on auxilliary finders. My IIIf is far more likely to have the J-3 on it than the Elmar.

I would say don't get too hung up on the glass having to be Leica - on a small budget, you're looking at old glass anyway, and I reckon the FSU stuff does a very good job in the vintage look department for a much lower price. The 40.5mm filter thread is easy to get bits for as well.

I'd suggest an M2 and an early J-8. The early ones are silver finish and the front element and aperture ring don't rotate - the later ones are black finish, and they do rotate (different mechanicals). If you prefer a 35mm, change the J-8 to a J-12, and pay a bit more.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

If you get a Russian lens, buy one from someone that has used it on a Leica. Otherwise, be prepared to send it to Fedka.com for a Clean/Lube/and Adjust. The last J-3 that I picked up from Ebay had a misassembled helical, needed to be lubed, and the optics were scratched up. Most of the Russian lenses that I have seen need to be adjusted to work on a Leica.

a good Russian lens can match a Canon or Nikkor. The trick is to find the good ones.

This 1955 KMZ J-3 is a good one, wide-open at F1.5 on the Leica M8.

 

[jsrockit]

Minolta CL with M-Rokkor 40mm

 

[Bill58]

Brian:

Good advice. I have bought all my Russian lenses from Fedka, had Yuri hand-select one, then CLA it. I pay a little more, but I've never had a problem.

Bill

 

[johannielscom]

+1 for rbiemer

here's a suggestion:

Beaten up M5 for 200 gbp or 322 usd ( http://www.rangefinderforum.com/pho....php/product/29143/title/leica-m6-m5-m3/cat/3 )

Jupiter 3, 50mm /f1.5 ( http://www.rangefinderforum.com/pho...29383/title/collectionlenses-and-camera/cat/2 )

total 110 + 322 = 432 + 40 for a LTM to Mount adapter = 472.

Cough up $200 for CLA and to fix issues = $672

( i didn't include shipping & handling).

raytoei

Very sound advice, +1! Youxin Ye can probably fix all m5 issues for the calculated USD 200.

 

[gho]

[...]
1) Leica M2 or M3 and lens such as Jupiter 8 or Industar 61
2) Bessa and early Leitz lens (summitar etc)

The setup will be my daily shooter, so which of the two varieties of lenses would be more usable? I've seen some Summars for around $220, however these seem pretty unusable due to the lack of coating etc. The cheapest Summitar on evilbay is $325. Would this be more usable than a Russian lens?

First I would think about the focal length that you are most comfortable with. You seem to want a 50mm. For daily use most people seem to prefer a 35mm lens. Personally I like 28mm very much. As for the lens options you have listed, I have very good experiences with the J8 (if you manage to get a good one). The Summitar is also very good, but mine stops at f12, so the J8 would give you more versatility, but I like the image quality of the Summitar slightly better (if you manage to get a good one). Mine is coated and some users seem to report a proneness to flare. I do not have that problem.

As for the body, the Bassas are perfectly fine, the screw mount Bessa R pairs quite nicely with the Summitar, but you won't be able to use M mount lenses. The finder is quite nice and the built in light meter is convenient. The M2 is quite nice also, if you like a classy, classic look and the built quality is exceptional. Loading film is a bit fiddly though and you get 35/50/90 framelines. The M4-P gives you more options with regard to framelines and film loading is much easier. It does not project that much class as the M2 though, if you are after that. It's more like a hands on tool.

These M's come without light meter, so you have to be comfortable with using an external one or none. With experience you may tend to use the meter less and less anyhow, as you learn to judge lightning situations by using an external meter. Takes some time though.

So from my experience in your situation I would put the M4-P up high on the list. Think about your preferred focal length. Once you are sure about your focal length I would not make too many compromises with regard to the lens. If your desired lens is out of reach, wait and don't buy yet. In the end you will save some bucks. Test before you buy. However, in the realm of 50s, in my opinion, the J8 is a valuable choice, given you mange to get a good one, and they are not very expensive.

Another route to RF photography would be to just buy a compact RF camera, such as the Olympus 35 RC/RD, XA, Canonet QL , Yashica Electro and so on. You may just want to buy one and see what you can produce with it, save up and base your future gear selections based on your experiences made with this one camera. Just my 2 cents, good luck.