Ebay scam targeting Leicas (hit twice in one week)

[Omerhecht]

Dear RF and Leica community,

Apparently, a new scam is going on over at Ebay, which has left me holding the bag on two camera kits - cameras gone, money is likely gone too.
In short:
A legit looking user account buys the item on Ebay (long standing account with good feedback), payment looks legit on Ebay and paypal.

Then a few days after delivery - the buyer requests to return the camera for a seemingly legit reason (hazy viewfinder/scratch etc). Either you or Ebay automatically accept the return if you have managed returns (if not, Ebay will force it one way or the other if buyer insists).

The buyer/scammer then prints out the shipping label, and returns some random items. Then they manually modify the label to a slightly different address near by to yours so that when it gets delivered, it is scanned, with signature as delivered at your postal code (this is all the data USPS collects, not actual delivery location or geotag), and the sender address is also changed to look legit, IE - XX company free sample department and a random address.

For the most part, the initial purchase is funded with a stolen or fraudulent credit card - so, even if you are able to get Ebay to close the case in your favor - a chargeback on the credit card will be forthcoming and the money will be lost, as there is no protection against a chargeback on a fraudulent charge basis and paypal will take the money out of your account.
Ebay will not pay back monies lost to fraud on their platform.

This happened to me twice in the last month - with both cameras listed at reasonable prices and sold in what appeared to be reasonable transactions with no red flags or other obvious signs of a fraud - with one exception - both were Leicas.

Perhaps this has been going on for a while, as i, as a business, avoid working with leicas for many reasons, and now - another new reason, and have not dealt with then in a while.

I am not sure anything can be done to protect yourself other than not sell on Ebay, but i am not sure other platforms are any safer in this case. Leicas seem to be as hot a fraud item as much as Iphones or other cell phones or consumer goods. Its a messed up situation, but at the end, i am left holding the ball 🙁.

 

[Bmoze]

Whoa...this is serious. Doesn’t EBay or PayPal vet the funding source? Has EBay responded to this other than saying...too bad?

It makes selling on EBay precarious.

 

[Scottboarding]

Really sorry to hear all of this. I've sworn off Ebay because there always seems to be some problem. I've fortunately never had something this serious happen but there have been enough frustrations that I've left the site as a seller. Forums and websites like KEH have been where I sell everything now and haven't had any issues.

 

[Omerhecht]

Whoa...this is serious. Doesn’t EBay or PayPal vet the funding source? Has EBay responded to this other than saying...too bad?

It makes selling on EBay precarious.

Ebay has responded by saying they will try to close out the returns without forcing a refund - however, a chargeback will follow and on that front, no one can do anything, Ebay or Paypal - the CC companies get the money back and thats that.

I am fairly certain the scammers have found the threshold that allows them to run the card so as to pass the scrutineering of both ebay and paypal.

Ebay have confirmed this is a trending problem within the last month (though they also admitted that cameras were not high on the list of this type of scam - though with two hits, in almost the same exact scam i suspect they have just not yet heard of all of them yet), and that they are working on a solution - the problem is - ebay/paypal are big companies, they move slowly, and scammers are small, sometimes single person enterprises, who are clever enough to "beat" the system and adapt much faster than Ebay or paypal ever can.

It would seem that Leicas, like phones are hot stuff, and easy to "unload" for some fast cash, in an out of the way transaction that will not raise too many questions. No one gets caught, the gear has swapped hands fast, and bobs your uncle. 🙁

 

[Bolo Kukus]

One part of the OP's first post has be confused -

The buyer/scammer then prints out the shipping label, and returns some random items. Then they manually modify the label to a slightly different address near by to yours so that when it gets delivered, it is scanned, with signature as delivered at your postal code (this is all the data USPS collects, not actual delivery location or geotag), and the sender address is also changed to look legit, IE - XX company free sample department and a random address.

This leads me to think the fraudulent 'buyer' would need an accomplice in the same area as the seller. Which seems highly unlikely in a nation as big as the US. Or am I reading this wrongly??

Your two experiences were truly unfortunate. With Leicas the financial loss could be quite high, and with no protection you are basically left holding an empty basinette with the baby long gone.

The basic message in this thread is that Ebay has now turned into a mug's game and sellers of items other than cheap gewgaws should look elsewhere to sell their valuable gear. This is the sad reality of what online selling/buying has become in the 21st century.

As a potential buyer of anything photographic worth more than $100, I would shop at a reputable camera retail seller or secondhand dealer, long established and with a good reputation. And insist on a warranty.

Anything otherwise is basically blind horse-trading.

 

[froyd]

Wow. I've been using eBay less and less, but always felt I could sniff out a fraudulent buyer/seller. Back in the olden days of Yahoo Auctions I lost $700 on a laptop that was never shipped to me, but nothing after that for at least 16 years.

What you describe seems impossible to detect, and I'm sorry to hear you were a victim. I appreciate you sharing the tale with us.

 

[David Murphy]

Thanks for letting us know. eBay becomes risky to use, particularly for sellers, for anything over about $500 in value, and much more so if the value exceeds $1000. That's the sort of dollar level scammers operate at (and higher of course).

 

[Omerhecht]

One part of the OP's first post has be confused -

The buyer/scammer then prints out the shipping label, and returns some random items. Then they manually modify the label to a slightly different address near by to yours so that when it gets delivered, it is scanned, with signature as delivered at your postal code (this is all the data USPS collects, not actual delivery location or geotag), and the sender address is also changed to look legit, IE - XX company free sample department and a random address.

This leads me to think the fraudulent 'buyer' would need an accomplice in the same area as the seller. Which seems highly unlikely in a nation as big as the US. Or am I reading this wrongly??

No - the recipient is a random unsuspecting entity, usually a business, which will not raise an eyebrow over a shipment of some random "free samples" and just chalk it down to a mistake of a large company sending out samples.

I am lucky that in this single case, the postman, who knows me well, and the postmasters who know me a little, were willing able to help find the shipment at a next door business and shed some light on what had just happened. But should this have been delivered on a day i was not physically there - it would have not gone the same way.

 

[Beemermark]

Dear RF and Leica community,

The buyer/scammer then prints out the shipping label, and returns some random items. Then they manually modify the label to a slightly different address near by to yours so that when it gets delivered, it is scanned, with signature as delivered at your postal code (this is all the data USPS collects, not actual delivery location or geotag), and the sender address is also changed to look legit, IE - XX company free sample department and a random address.

Perhaps this has been going on for a while, as i, as a business, avoid working with leicas for many reasons, and now - another new reason, and have not dealt with then in a while.
.

No not new. I stopped doing business on eBay a long time ago as a seller. Send the scammer a decent camera, opens a dispute as not as described, and I get nice 110 Instamatic back in the mail. There is no protection for the seller on eBay, been like that for a long time. That's why you mostly see large businesses doing the selling with items priced at top dollar. Just like shop lifting in the brick and mortar store. They charge a price that can cover the fees, thief and still make a profit. If you want to sell on eBay don't sell to anyone that has less than, say, 10 feedback. And check the feedback. Was it $1.00 items or 10 items for over a $100.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

.......

In short:
A legit looking user account buys the item on Ebay (long standing account with good feedback), payment looks legit on Ebay and paypal.........

That’s awful, obviously. Just curious, could you/would you post a link to the buyer’s feedback page, which is public information, if it is still up?
Just seems odd that someone with a long history of honest buying would suddenly turn to crime, though anything’s possible. I buy and sell on eBay all the time, and know there are some intricate schemes possible, but would, for my own protection, like to get a better sense of what the feedback page of this person looked like.
I know people can quickly make 15 purchases of inexpensive items and run up a 100% positive score, in preparation for running a scam like this, but a long standing account buying large dollar items with nothing but positive feedback from people who were happy to sell to him, to suddenly do this, that’s odd.

 

[Brian Legge]

Larry, its also very possible that it was someones legit ebay account that was hacked. Stolen accounts have definitely been a thing in the past.

 

[Bille]

This is a common fraud with Paypal I believe. Buyer files a random complaint and then returns whatever with proof of delivery. Paypal blindly refunds the buyer.

 

[Bille]

I know people can quickly make 15 purchases of inexpensive items and run up a 100% positive score, in preparation for running a scam like this, but a long standing account buying large dollar items with nothing but positive feedback from people who were happy to sell to him, to suddenly do this, that’s odd.

If you´re only buying, you cant have a score under 100% I believe.

 

[Dralowid]

Even though I have not had a serious problem with a purchaser I have stopped selling on Ebay

1 the risk is now too high
2 I feel like I have no control over the process
3 the transaction cost inc Paypal fees exceeds other methods

and finally, prices. I just don't think things are reaching the prices that can be obtained through either auction houses (Westlicht etc) or by selling on commission through dealers.

Mind you, it doesn't leave many options for getting rid of photographic junk!

 

[Omerhecht]

That’s awful, obviously. Just curious, could you/would you post a link to the buyer’s feedback page, which is public information, if it is still up?
Just seems odd that someone with a long history of honest buying would suddenly turn to crime, though anything’s possible. I buy and sell on eBay all the time, and know there are some intricate schemes possible, but would, for my own protection, like to get a better sense of what the feedback page of this person looked like.
I know people can quickly make 15 purchases of inexpensive items and run up a 100% positive score, in preparation for running a scam like this, but a long standing account buying large dollar items with nothing but positive feedback from people who were happy to sell to him, to suddenly do this, that’s odd.

It is most likely not the actual account owner doing the buying/scamming - either the accounts are hacked, or the whole persons identity has been stolen including bank/card info.
In any case, it appears that the accounts are only used once for this process as anything beyond once may trigger some more scrutinizing.

 

[Paul T.]

There is a procedure to get your cash back.

File a fraud report. Then send papers to ebay.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Archi...quot-Brick-quot-instead-of-item/td-p/19216081

 

[Larry Cloetta]

Larry, its also very possible that it was someones legit ebay account that was hacked. Stolen accounts have definitely been a thing in the past.

Okay, I guess I should learn more about the mechanism of how to actually take control of someone else’s Ebay account. Anything can be hacked if you’ve got significant skills. That would be a huge issue if widespread, though I guess if you are scammed, it doesn’t need to be widespread.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

If you´re only buying, you cant have a score under 100% I believe.

Which is a reason to never rely on 100% scores which are notoriously easy to achieve, and always take a close, extended look at the actual feedback itself, if concerned. And, on eBay, which I use regularly, I am always concerned. There are many enticing items I won’t bite on, and many sales I have cancelled after being paid because there were huge red flags in the buyer’s feedback. Even little red flags are enough.

But the scam reported here, there seems to be no way I could, as a seller, prevent that, which is why I am asking all the questions. I’ve had well over a thousand transactions on eBay, and only been significantly taken for a ride once, and that was by someone who knew all the intricacies of gaming the Paypal and eBay system better than I did. But, this one reported here seems hard to prevent no matter how wary you are.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

It is most likely not the actual account owner doing the buying/scamming - either the accounts are hacked, or the whole persons identity has been stolen including bank/card info.
In any case, it appears that the accounts are only used once for this process as anything beyond once may trigger some more scrutinizing.

Thanks. That seems foolproof, if you are the scammer.

I’m hundreds of miles from any retail store which would buy or trade camera equipment, and Adorama, KEH, B&H pay so little relative to selling to individuals that that option is a non-starter. So, I’m pretty much stuck with eBay, Fred Miranda, and here, regardless.

And, thanks for posting this.

 

[Rob-F]

Selling here on RFF to long- time members we know to be legit seems like the safest way. And I have been sending high-ticket items by Priority Express. The fast handling time seems to reduce the chance of a mishap.