Bob Ross
Well-known
Some stray thoughts about viewfinders:
Window with framelines: This is an unprocessed or constricted view
Focus screen (ground glass): Constriction to two dimensions, shows DOF & lower resolution than plain view/window finder.
EVF or LCD: Fully processed according to the camera software to the approximate finished image. Accuarcy of colors, contrast & saturation may deviate from reality.
EVFs are generally 100% for framing accuaracy. Manual focus can be aided by increasing the sharpness or saturaton of what is in focus. Nikon used this in some Coolpix models and the image would pop. Commercial video cams use stuff like this. There has been reports that the current 4/3rds models will alias along sharp edges when in focus, producing a twinkle effect. That would be focus by twinkle....
Bob
Window with framelines: This is an unprocessed or constricted view
Focus screen (ground glass): Constriction to two dimensions, shows DOF & lower resolution than plain view/window finder.
EVF or LCD: Fully processed according to the camera software to the approximate finished image. Accuarcy of colors, contrast & saturation may deviate from reality.
EVFs are generally 100% for framing accuaracy. Manual focus can be aided by increasing the sharpness or saturaton of what is in focus. Nikon used this in some Coolpix models and the image would pop. Commercial video cams use stuff like this. There has been reports that the current 4/3rds models will alias along sharp edges when in focus, producing a twinkle effect. That would be focus by twinkle....
Bob
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think a camera with an effective EVF bridges that gap between the rangefinder and the SLR provided it performs to a level that matches the benefits of either system ... and before long it will oviously.
And to those who say "yes but an EVF won't to this and it won't do that!" aren't paying attention to how fast the world is changing. We now casually download files from the internet that wouldn't have fitted on the hard drives that our computers came with not too many years ago!
And to those who say "yes but an EVF won't to this and it won't do that!" aren't paying attention to how fast the world is changing. We now casually download files from the internet that wouldn't have fitted on the hard drives that our computers came with not too many years ago!
pvdhaar
Peter
The common understanding here seems to be that if an electronic finder can replace optical finders on DSLRs, that also necessarily implies that they will. And I can see that the average RF shooter doesn't have high regards for the mirror box design in SLRs.
But let's be fair: whichever way you slice the cake, phase detection autofocus with dedicated AF sensors under a split beam mirror does and forever will be able to outpace contrast detection AF that requires physically racking in and out the lens..
And that's why you'll keep seeing new DSLRs with optical viewfinders and mirrors in the foreseeable future..
But let's be fair: whichever way you slice the cake, phase detection autofocus with dedicated AF sensors under a split beam mirror does and forever will be able to outpace contrast detection AF that requires physically racking in and out the lens..
And that's why you'll keep seeing new DSLRs with optical viewfinders and mirrors in the foreseeable future..
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
It's a major development, for sure. EVFs are the future and the possibilities will bring another iteration of improvements for camera makers and camera buyers.
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dirojas
dirojas
There is no way to see outside of the frame with an EVF. To me this is the essence of rangefinder photography. These developments are exciting though, and improving viewfinders is always a good thing for photographers.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
I can tell you that I can't see much outside the frame lines when using a 28 on my M4-P. OTH if I was a 50 user that would be a valid point for me.
Bob
Bob
georgef
Well-known
You are not taking into account a split beam EVF camera. Canon did it by using a pellicle mirror in the RT in 1989. Just for AF, this mirror could be very small and in a shallower angle to still allow for shorter flange depth.
The EVF is tied with contrast AF right now for budget purposes, not physics. If CANIKON decides to implement EVF into their pro bodies, AF will be on of the first parts to figure out.
antiquark
Derek Ross
There are still some technical problems that have to be solved before EVF's can replace the SLR mechanism:
- The sensor must always be on. For APS-C and larger sensors, they suck a lot of power and have to be turned off after a few minutes to avoid overheating.
- Shutter lag. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an EVF camera has to close the shutter before opening it again to take an actual photograph.
- EVF lag. Assuming the EVF is updating at 30 frames per second (the normal video rate) you'll have a 30 msec delay from the scene in front of you to the scene in the EVF.
- EVF dynamic range. How will the sensor respond if you're taking a picture that's strongly backlit? Will the subject become blocked out, or will the background become blown? With an SLR, the human eye itself is the limit for seeing the dynamic range.
- EVF resolution. With an SLR or rangefinder, the finder resolution is wayyyyy higher than the 600x800 that an EVF provides.
However, once those problems (and others that I most likely missed) are solved, then the EVF might be a strong competitor to the SLR.
- The sensor must always be on. For APS-C and larger sensors, they suck a lot of power and have to be turned off after a few minutes to avoid overheating.
- Shutter lag. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an EVF camera has to close the shutter before opening it again to take an actual photograph.
- EVF lag. Assuming the EVF is updating at 30 frames per second (the normal video rate) you'll have a 30 msec delay from the scene in front of you to the scene in the EVF.
- EVF dynamic range. How will the sensor respond if you're taking a picture that's strongly backlit? Will the subject become blocked out, or will the background become blown? With an SLR, the human eye itself is the limit for seeing the dynamic range.
- EVF resolution. With an SLR or rangefinder, the finder resolution is wayyyyy higher than the 600x800 that an EVF provides.
However, once those problems (and others that I most likely missed) are solved, then the EVF might be a strong competitor to the SLR.
jreid
Member
Actually there is -- professional television cameras have framelines on the operator's monitor to allow for image loss through the transmission chain (a safety zone). An EVF could easily do the same thing but it would require dedicating a percentage of the outer portion of the sensor to this purpose. Of course this route would mean a small crop factor if using existing lenses but my hope would be that the brilliant minds at Leica and elsewhere move on to a more flexible yet just as compact lens mount for this speculative advance in viewfinder technology.
I'm hoping for something way out of the SLR/rangefinder box. Obviously there are a lot of technical hurdles ahead as antiquark noted in a post.
A few years ago they said full-frame M digital couldn't be done. And then they did it. It just takes time. If we're lucky, less than we think.
willie_901
Veteran
I have not used the Epson EVF. I will say that the G1-20/1.7 combo is well-suited for manual focusing in low light. When the light is very low, the EVF gain can increase to the point where the view becomes a bit grainy. But zoomed focusing still works well. The auto-focus can be set so one may fine tune manually after the AF locks.
I predict many EVF skeptics would be surprised if they have the opportunity to play to the G1-20/1.7 combo (or something with similar performance) for a while.
Because EVF manufacturing costs are lower than optical finders, I believe EVFs will be come more and more common. Those who require optical finders and digital sensors will simply pay a hefty premium... or do without.
I predict many EVF skeptics would be surprised if they have the opportunity to play to the G1-20/1.7 combo (or something with similar performance) for a while.
Because EVF manufacturing costs are lower than optical finders, I believe EVFs will be come more and more common. Those who require optical finders and digital sensors will simply pay a hefty premium... or do without.
Tuolumne
Veteran
You could certainly build an evf that did this (overscanning), but I doubt there are enough people who care to make this a market reality.
/T
Tuolumne
Veteran
I use this combo. It is now almost all I use. If you want to enjoy the view, buy an HDTV. I use cameras to take pictures.
/T
Frankie
Speaking Frankly
The Olympus EP-2 is now announced...but no data on the EVF as yet. However, the new Epson panel that was said to have been used in the EP-2 has a resolution of 800 x 600 (RGB sequential, thus 1.4Mp equivalent) over a chip diagonal of 12mm (9.6 x 7.2mm)...the native pixel size is a mere 12 microns.
This Epson spec. is identical to the G1 or GH-1 spec. and my first hand opinion is that it is nearly as good as the Olympus optical finder for the 17mm prime I also viewed...one after the other at the same scene.
I do believe the next generation EVF penal is just around the corner...
aizan
Veteran
Merkin
For the Weekend
The issue is pixel density. Those 800x600 pixels are in a rectangle with a half inch diagonal. If that rectangle was the same size as my iMac's monitor, it would be an LCD screen with a resolution of 38400x28800 pixels. The iMac monitor, which is as good or better as an HDTV resolution wise (consider the 1080 pixels of the HDTV versus 28800 pixels), is NOWHERE near that level of pixel density. Just imagine the resolution on a 24 inch monitor with that many pixels, and it makes 800x600 pixels per rectangle with a hypoteneuse of half an inch seem massive.
I liked looking through my RD-1 VF better than my G1 but the G1 EVF is certainly easier to focus in any light, beven though it gets trickier in low light. With the magnification for MF there is no contest with an RF.
I think the argument against EVFs in the future is based on sentimentality more than reality; the superiority of the OVF that has been evolved for over 50 years to the EVF that has only been seriously developed for less than 5 will certainly diminish as the technology develops.
I think rangefinder photography will cease in terms of the technology, but not in terms of the process; the new breed of "RF's" will be in the form of small, bright, fast and quiet digitals with very good sensors. the process of the inobtrusive, non-SLR way of taking pictures will remain through new tools.
One thing is for sure IMHO: optically tied range finding mechanisms will go the way of the motordrives: they will simply not be necessary.
FLAMESUIT ON!
I agree. Rangefinder focusing is not an end unto itself, it is a means to an end. The end, in this case, is a small, fast to operate lightweight miniature format camera (35mm was considered miniature format at the time the leica and contax were invented). Modern EVF cameras will hopefully represent that end in a modern manner, replacing RF and other small cameras just as Full Frame DSLRs are so rapidly replacing medium format film cameras amongst so many photographers and Medium format DSLRs are so rapidly replacing large format film cameras among so many photographers.
Nikon is getting around this by apparently developing a mirrorless camera that has no shutter at all.
Krzys
Well-known
I will buy a camera with an EVF and use an optical finder on the hotshoe.
cmedin
Well-known
I guess shooting a Barnack Leica with a 50mm lens using the built in finder lacks this "essence of rangefinder photography" you speak of.
mrisney
Well-known
This is a game changer for the industry. I can only imagine that camera's like the Alpa TC, Fotoman, or DIY'ers could reduce a camera to an OEM Epson EVF viewer, a lens aligned to the viewer, and a digital back. This will put the emphasis less on the design of a camera,and more on the lenses and the quality of the sensors. If this issues in an era, where DIY'ers can mashup legacy lenses to standard backs, and there is less design to be concerned on the reflex housing. The SLR and DSLR's, that the industry has flooded the market with are going to be as a relevant as CD players in a few years. Exciting times we live in