Erwin on Leicas future

[ferider]

Still two wheels too many, /T ! 😀

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I agree that the RF concept is doomed <snip>

Nikon and Canon <snip>

Check, please.

 

[giellaleafapmu]

The price of the M8 - in dollars - is a problem. - Much thanks to the democratically elected US government. That can't be blamed the Leica managment...

Here I might agree with you and add that most countries have strange policies in that sense. From where I live (Somewhere in South America) it is more convenient to travel to the US, stay in a hotel a couple days, buy a Canon EOS 5D or EOS ID mark something or a Leica M8 and come back that go to the shop and buy the same product from the only official dealer. Still some people buy cameras here...

Just taking again the example of the EOS 5D, the difference in price between US and here is almost 1500 US$! A two way flight is less than 800US$ and with 700US$ you can definitively have a good time for a few days almost everywhere.

The good news if one travels and/or have friends who do is that we can try almost any product we like (except perhaps the most exotic ones) and still sell it here for more than we paid for if we don't like it.

GLF

 

[tomasis]

And you think all that makes it better? I'll take a stick shift, hard ridin', gas-guzzling, chest impaling Good ole' American Hot Rod over your effete, auto-everyting, no thinking, sissy protected, European do-everything-but-steer automobile any day!

/T

Even old porsche make anything of american cars to eat dust at corners 😀

 

[Olsen]

Here I might agree with you and add that most countries have strange policies in that sense. From where I live (Somewhere in South America) it is more convenient to travel to the US, stay in a hotel a couple days, buy a Canon EOS 5D or EOS ID mark something or a Leica M8 and come back that go to the shop and buy the same product from the only official dealer. Still some people buy cameras here...

Just taking again the example of the EOS 5D, the difference in price between US and here is almost 1500 US$! A two way flight is less than 800US$ and with 700US$ you can definitively have a good time for a few days almost everywhere.

The good news if one travels and/or have friends who do is that we can try almost any product we like (except perhaps the most exotic ones) and still sell it here for more than we paid for if we don't like it.

GLF

Most Europeans are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (Germany 19%, Norway 20% etc.), so it is common to buy expensive camera equipment when going abroad on business trips or vactions. With the sudden dollar fall last automn a group of amateur photographers from the Oslo area (Oslo Kameraklubb) went to NY to empty the shelves at B&H. Each saved more than the airfair & weekend hotel fair of some 1,200 $, they said. They saved up to 35 - 40% on the prices in the shops here in Oslo (20% VAT pluss 15% 'currency fall' and 5% 'rebates' more agressive US pricing)

 

[giellaleafapmu]

Most Europeans are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (Germany 19%, Norway 20% etc.), so it is common to buy expensive camera equipment when going abroad on business trips or vactions. With the sudden dollar fall last automn a group of amateur photographers from the Oslo area (Oslo Kameraklubb) went to NY to empty the shelves at B&H. Each saved more than the airfair & weekend hotel fair of some 1,200 $, they said. They saved up to 35 - 40% on the prices in the shops here in Oslo (20% VAT pluss 15% 'currency fall' and 5% 'rebates' more agressive US pricing)

I have never lived in Norway but I lived many years in Finland and I know what you mean...

Still, I felt not so bad to pay high taxes in a country with little or no corruption (even though I often wondered whether they used public money in the best way, but that is another story), here I am not always sure what am I paying for...

GLF

 

[dazedgonebye]

Most Europeans are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (Germany 19%, Norway 20% etc.), so it is common to buy expensive camera equipment when going abroad on business trips or vactions. With the sudden dollar fall last automn a group of amateur photographers from the Oslo area (Oslo Kameraklubb) went to NY to empty the shelves at B&H. Each saved more than the airfair & weekend hotel fair of some 1,200 $, they said. They saved up to 35 - 40% on the prices in the shops here in Oslo (20% VAT pluss 15% 'currency fall' and 5% 'rebates' more agressive US pricing)

Do you mean to tell me that, as much as everyone loves the shared benefits "paid for by government," people actually go out of their way to avoid giving the government its due?

Shocking.

 

[Tuolumne]

Most Europeans are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (Germany 19%, Norway 20% etc.), so it is common to buy expensive camera equipment when going abroad on business trips or vactions. With the sudden dollar fall last automn a group of amateur photographers from the Oslo area (Oslo Kameraklubb) went to NY to empty the shelves at B&H. Each saved more than the airfair & weekend hotel fair of some 1,200 $, they said. They saved up to 35 - 40% on the prices in the shops here in Oslo (20% VAT pluss 15% 'currency fall' and 5% 'rebates' more agressive US pricing)

Well, that's what's SUPPOSED to happen when one currency falls greatly with respect to another. It's nice to know the laws of economics are still working. You're welcome here to spend money any time you wish to visit! 🙂

/T

 

[jjovin]

I actually do not think that Puts go it right even this time.
The problem is not the range finder concept. I like it and many others do.
The problem is the Leica prices! People buy used Leica because it is so much cheeper
than a new one. Perhaps Puts can not admit to himself that Zeiss Ikon
and Voigtlander Bessa are also range finder cameras.
Hence (for him) the range finder concept will go down with Leica.

 

[Tuolumne]

I actually do not think that Puts go it right even this time.
The problem is not the range finder concept. I like it and many others do.
The problem is the Leica prices! People buy used Leica because it is so much cheeper
than a new one. Perhaps Puts can not admit to himself that Zeiss Ikon
and Voigtlander Bessa are also range finder cameras.
Hence (for him) the range finder concept will go down with Leica.

I have bought one new Leica body - an LHSA MP3. To tell the truth, my M3, M4 and M5 feel better made and operate more smoothly and quietly. I can't figure out why I keep the MP3. I am not a collector.

/T

 

[DelDavis]

And you think all that makes it better? I'll take a stick shift, hard ridin', gas-guzzling, chest impaling Good ole' American Hot Rod over your effete, auto-everyting, no thinking, sissy protected, European do-everything-but-steer automobile any day!

/T

Wow.

And why, exactly, would you do that?

 

[dazedgonebye]

Wow.

And why, exactly, would you do that?

Not that I can answer for Tuolumne, but for my part I'd say because characteristics like smooth, safe, well rounded and versitile can be a heck of a lot less interesting/exciting than something that kicks a$$...even with serious flaws.

 

[larmarv916]

Just to chime in, I'm in Leica's target audience, and I would never buy one when, for the price of one Leica and lens, I can get 4 or 5 Bessa's and Lenses over time, as they come out with new models or when one breaks down (or I break it 🙂 ). Not even mentioning that when placed on a wall, my D200 will produce a picture as good as a M8. Basically, for what they bring to the table, I would only pay a slight premium over what I would pay to get a Leica. I think the Contax G2 was something I'd look into before the M8. IMO

Yes Athos....is in reality hitting the exposed nerve that is the source of Leica's root problem with the current or new gereration of consumers. But the flip side to tha coin is deep at the very heart of Leica's senior management and board is a massive case of Denial....They really keep telling themselves...people donot understand what we are offering.

And consumers can only vote with their "Wallets" and cash....so Leica's refusal to meet the needs and changing needs of the customers meas that the tide of money and cusomers has stranded Leica hihg and dry.

Also what LEICA has refused to deal with is that they are alwyas late to the market with event the products they promise. Dealers are refusing to reorder becasue they can not get promised delivery times.

In the end if you can get better quaity or the same quality at a lower price then every consumer switches brands.....The best Proof of this is the battle between MER-Benz and LEXUS. Lexus is only a Toyota. Yet TOYOTA is is eating MBenz's lunch.

So Nikon and Canon are now in control of the marketpplace and have a brand tha is stroinger in the eyes of more customers. Zeiss has figured out that they must develop way to ADD VALUE to a NIKON and they do that with the Lenses they now make. Leica could have done this but chose to play HARDBALL and force people to BUY the Leica R products.

What happened.....They walked away to products that were lower cost and quality was deemed as EQUAL in the eyes of professionals and other consumers.

The very best example of Hard Ball marketing was...the British motorcycle industry....Refused to put a statrer switch on it's bikes. As the trademark of a real motorcycle was a kick start. God what a pain. Honda overnight wipped out the Brits with just a electric starter!!

This "our way or the Highway" in business has and will always fail.

 

[stubbie]

Having moved from SLR's (both digital and film) to rangefinders in recent years, my initial feeling was one of 'slight disappointment'. I didn't see the tangible benefits that were often touted of RF's like lighter weight, smaller, increased reliability etc. I could always seem to find an equivalent 35mm SLR that matched the RF for those perceived benefits. But a funny thing started happening... I just enjoyed using the RF more. It was fun, simple, and my photography improved. I started to feel conspicuous holding a DSLR with a big lens. People would shy away, and I felt like some intruder on people's lives. I got sick of people asking how many megapixels my camera had - "oh only 8...".

I had an opportunity to use a D3 the other day... lovely camera, excellent results but no... I'd have a Bessa/Leica/Zeiss any day (even if I could afford the entry fee). But I also acknowledge many/most photographers just HAVE to have one for their type of work.

So whilst I can understand where the article came from, I just don't agree that it's a osund analysis of Leica's future. Hey I am 36 (so not young anymore!) but one day I would LOVE to own a Leica. And hey, if I could ever afford it, I'd buy four.

Why do people still buy vinyl/turntables, swiss watches, steel rigid mountain bikes? Why do we climb a mountain when there's a road going up? Gee, it's not nostalgia that's for sure. They're just cooler, more fun, interesting... and that's enough. And hey in Leica's case, the results I have seen from an M3 or MP (or an M8 for that matter) are as good or better than anything I have ever seen before.

But business is business, and of course I hope they sort things out!

 

[Tuolumne]

Wow.

And why, exactly, would you do that?

For the same reason that someone might buy an M8 (or R-D1) instead of a Nikon D3. Isn't that what this thread is about? 🙂

/T

 

[Olsen]

Do you mean to tell me that, as much as everyone loves the shared benefits "paid for by government," people actually go out of their way to avoid giving the government its due?

Shocking.

Most people in Europe pay hefty taxes. Myself, I pay about 40% off my sallary, plus 20% VAT, special taxes on cars, petrol, sigaretttes, alcohol etc. Still I believe that it is worth it. In most European countries you get services back like education through university, health care for all and a lavish and safe pension funds that you Americans can only dream of.

Sure, people cheat on the system. Tax evation is far more common in Europe compared to USA. Among ordinary people the possibilities of cheating large sums is minimal. For the super rich there is huge posibilities. - Like stuffing your money away in Lichtenstein - which German police now is unravelling.

Buying cameras etc. tax free when on vacations is tax free up untill 10.000 NOK (2,000 dollars) per person here in Norway, but customs look through their fingers even when discovering purchases far larger. Customs will rather spend time on illegal imports of tax free cars, smuggling of alcohol and drugs which are for sale.

 

[DelDavis]

Not that I can answer for Tuolumne, but for my part I'd say because characteristics like smooth, safe, well rounded and versitile can be a heck of a lot less interesting/exciting than something that kicks a$$...even with serious flaws.

Well, I'd be willing to bet that the stock Audi would beat a stock Mustang (GT?) around a track. Never drove either, just vaguely know the specs, so it would be a gamble.

 

[dazedgonebye]

Most people in Europe pay hefty taxes. Myself, I pay about 40% off my sallary, plus 20% VAT, special taxes on cars, petrol, sigaretttes, alcohol etc. Still I believe that it is worth it. In most European countries you get services back like education through university, health care for all and a lavish and safe pension funds that you Americans can only dream of.

Sure, people cheat on the system. Tax evation is far more common in Europe compared to USA. Among ordinary people the possibilities of cheating large sums is minimal. For the super rich there is huge posibilities. - Like stuffing your money away in Lichtenstein - which German police now is unravelling.

Buying cameras etc. tax free when on vacations is tax free up untill 10.000 NOK (2,000 dollars) per person here in Norway, but customs look through their fingers even when discovering purchases far larger. Customs will rather spend time on illegal imports of tax free cars, smuggling of alcohol and drugs which are for sale.

No doubt the tax cheats think the taxes are worth it too.
When most people say they are willing to pay for something "worth it" with taxes, they generally hope it means someone else's taxes.
In any case, NY State appreciates any taxes shifted from Norway to their coffers, I'm sure.
In the early 80s, I left a couple of paychecks in a town called Bergen, mostly in cigarette and liquor taxes.
Glad I could help.
We are already so wildly off topic that i won't go in to my feelings toward complicated tax structures that motivate lying, cheating, stealing and bad business practices in the name of tax avoidance.

 

[dazedgonebye]

Well, I'd be willing to bet that the stock Audi would beat a stock Mustang (GT?) around a track. Never drove either, just vaguely know the specs, so it would be a gamble.

I wouldn't begin to make statements about performance or better or best when it comes to cars...or most other things.
I was only speaking about the relative experience and how much a matter of preference that is.

I guess I could actually tie that back to the original topic by relating it to camera choices...but that sounds like too much work.