Erwin on Leicas future

[BillP]

Olsen, in real world photography, even that of most pros, whatever sharpness advantage the Leica and lenses may have is simply not an issue. We aren't shooting stuff for the most part that are going to be reproduced at large sizes and folks are going to put their nose up to and evaluate.

Sitemistic,

*shakes head*

You should know better than to come out with such sweeping generalisations. You operate in one aspect of "real world photography". Please do not speak for everyone.

Regards,

Bill

 

[aizan]

how about that, i am completely in agreement with mr. puts.

 

[Sonnar2]

Frank,

Look at the Canon 5D. Isnt that 'practically the same product' as the EF of 1970...?

Yes, at least they have the same color ;-)

As far as I remember it took LEICA 30 years longer to integrate AE into a camera with electronical controlled shutter. Can you imagine another industry where you can survive with a leeway of this length ? Not in China but in a country which once had some of the highest wages in the world?

As for TTL metering, Canon just was 15 years ahead (this was at the time the M5 started). So the leeway increases with time. So it can be expected they can build a camera similar to the 5D in 2055...

 

[RIVI1969]

....which cameras w/optics at half the price of the M8 produces 'better pictures....?

Olsen,

There are better cameras, but if we are talking about only those who cost half the price including optics then these gears could do it:

1. Canon 5D + 24-70mm 2.8 + 3 primes = 4000dlls
2. Nikon D300 + 24-70mm 2.8 + 3 primes = 4500dlls

(even my D80 with its primes lenses can hold its own at a 1/4rd of the price)

 

[Olsen]

how about that, i am completely in agreement with mr. puts.

I don't. Edwin Puts should stay off the Jägermeister for a while.

 

[anselwannab]

It is kind of a shame that while dSLRs were gearing up that RFs couldn't make a run of it. I think too many people have dSLRs now to try to switch them over.

To be economically viable, you have to have AF and sophiticated metering system in a camera. People won't tolerate missed shots and crappy results. Luckily, I the answer is staring us in the face in the form of the D300. Use the sensor as the autofocus module, and I assume you can use the sensor as an expsoure checker too.

Tie that info into a AF M mount lens system, that would allow the use of old M glass, but with the AF (obviuosly) or the metering.

The AF M mount lenses are the key. With out them, your camera will never approach mainstream appeal, and you need new lens sales to cover costs.

You could even keep the M mount cameras for film and digital as your high end exclusive cameras.

Leica made their way due to changing the paradigm and doing it with unrivaled quality. They have to change the paradigm again.

Maybe they need to leverage their cool, hipness factor with more a integrated community after the sale. Kind of a Rff for the new D Leicas. Keep the sense of community together. Canon and Nikon sell you a camera and send you on your way.

 

[Tom A]

....which cameras w/optics at half the price of the M8 produces 'better pictures....?


2)
No camera system has such a wide range of 'excellent optics' as the Leica M system. Now that we all can click ourselves all the way to 100% in PS we are all optical experts with the tools to explore just this.


I disagree here. As I stated before, there are two premium lenses in the current Leica line-up, the 50f1.4 Asph and the 75/2 Summicron. The rest of the Leica line-up is either old technology or plain weird (Wate and the collapsible 90 Macro). The WATE is not optically bad, but I can buy a 15/4,5 Heliar, a 18f4 Distagon ZM and the 21/4,5 Biogon ZM for less tan 1/2 that price and each of these lenses are either equal to or better than the WATE.
Today Leica has a very large complement of excellent lenses, most of which are made by the competition! Leica is still resting on the laurels of past glory - The Noctilux is getting on in years (40+), the Summicron 50 is even older and it shows, the 21 and 24 are very good lenses, but the ZM 21/25 f2.8 are right up there with them. The 35/2 Asph is good, but the Biogon 35 ZM at less than 1/2 price is again right there. The 35/1,4 Asph is one of the best 35's - but it is flare prone and the VC 35/1.2 is faster and virtually flare proof and a 1/4 of the price.
Optics like the 12/5,6 and the 15/4,5 from VC (about $1300 for BOTH of them) is something that Leica never thought off. Highly specalized optics at affordable prices!
I sometimes get the feeling that if ir wasn't for VC/Zeiss/Konica/Kobalux - Leica would still be plodding along and announcing "new lenshoods" on old lenses as the big news!
The Summarit line was a step in the right direction, but priced out of line. The new 28f2.8 Asph is another good idea, but it seems to have died at the inception - none around!
From the stand point of a Rf user - we have never had it better when it comes to choice of lenses and cameras ,but that was in spite of Leica rather thanks to them!

 

[giellaleafapmu]

....which cameras w/optics at half the price of the M8 produces 'better pictures....?

Well, I was thinking to the EOS 5D for example.

My experience is that the M8/WATE combo is better (sharper) than Canon's 1Ds II/16-35 mm 2,8L II - two combos costing about the same.

Cannot judge this as I don't have the 1Ds II but even if true this does not prove much, I did not say that no camera is more expensive and produce worst pictures...

It is the experienced photographer, amateur or pro, that 'finds out' that the rangefinder system makes sharper pictures. This because AF does not and modern SLR cameras has not good enough focusing screens for exact manual focusing anymore.

Mmmmh, I don't have a proof but in real life I don't see a difference you can sell. You are probably right if you speak lines per mm about one of the picture you can get with both system still both can produce pictures which are even too good for most application and for the other (still-life, products, food) I wouldn't use any of the two systems anyway.

No camera system has such a wide range of 'excellent optics' as the Leica M system. Now that we all can click ourselves all the way to 100% in PS we are all optical experts with the tools to explore just this.
3)
The M8 is a very light, compact and descrete camera system compared to the 'real' competitors, of which most of them, can't produce the excellent results resolution-wise, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I like rangefinders and I do like the M8, still it is a retrofit which might be all-right but not at the price...again real life is a proof of that.

GLF

 

[slm]

Bill, believe it or not, I've developed over the last 35 years of being a photographer a pretty large network of photography friends from art photographers to commercial photographers. I'm not cloistered in a newspaper office all the time. I also do gallery showings (have another this November), so not everything I shoot and print has an 85 line screen on it.

With modern quality lenses, the difference in sharpness in real world conditions, at any reasonable print size, is simply not relevant. Not to my art photographer friends, not to my commercial photographer friends, and certainly not to me. These people are shooting with everything but Leicas. Any advantage a Leica lens may have over a Canon L lens is offset by the fact that Leicas are of limited use for most types of photography and that the real world differences are slight.

I'm shocked. I thought pro's didn't "settle" for quality.

 

[ferider]

Completely different thought:

CEO gone, new marketing head, field marketing (Puts) announces dooms day for Leica, even though the numbers are good compared to 2 years ago ........... does that sounds like an acquisition in progress to anyone ? :angel:

 

[BillBingham2]

Might be an option....

Might be an option....

I like the simplicity, but it really must have an LCD. Chimping is one of the main advantages of digital. I know there are a few people here who think otherwise, but there are so few that you would just kill off a good idea with a bad implementation.

/T

T,

I love Chimping, part of my respect for the TLR is being able to hold it over my head and see the picture I am getting, it's way cool. Chimping gives me that too. LCDs add value, but I disagree that they are a major reason why someone would switch from an M6 lets say. Our market his is the film/rangefinder user getting them to move to digital. If we give them an easy camera to use, one that will be robust, digital has other sirens that will bring them over than just an LCD. Digital is fast, it will bring the bodies into the mainstream PJ types as they can use the same workflow as they have for their DSLRs. It's low cost so folks who do not want the wet darkroom can have a dry light room to work their images. No film to soup and scan, no expensive scanners to buy and keep VERY CLEAN. I think it was Keith who shot the other day with an M8 the party made a great point, the M8 is small and easy get lost with. DSLRs look like a tank.

Keep the camera manual focus, use the old lenses, keep the cost low and make some money. With less features in the camera you both lower cost of manufacturing as well as quicker time to market (less testing). There are lots of options for PC and Mac (and Linux) software to do your after shooting processing, give away the raw filters to EVERYONE.

Leica must make a rock solid product and make it easy for people to move over to it and not forget their previous investment in old glass. Simple Elegance with a image quality equal to the D300. I believe that this is a big enough market that Nikon could walk into and own within one year of giving the project a go. Issue some new M mount glass, a digital SP body and then you could close the doors on Leica. Just fold up the pieces and sell the parts to Don and Sherry.

B2 (;->

 

[aizan]

let's say leica goes belly up. what happens then?

 

[jack palmer]

The new Mustang is 'modern'? Don't you have modern cars over there? It has a stiff rear axle! It is a simple pick-up with a fastback design. It's an old fashioned car made at a factory with 70'-80' technology. In 2010 it will not meet EU emision standards...

A pickup that will kick the ass of some European sports cars costing ten times as much and you don't have to have a spare while ones in the shop like the European exotics........ and the M8.

 

[Jamie Pillers]

Let's think differently for a moment.

I have no interest in $5000 camera bodies and $3000 lenses... period! There is NOT enough difference in the way a Leica-produced print and, say a Voigtlander-produced print, at ANY size looks to justify such a purchase... in my opinion, of course.

However, over the past year or so I've been trying out a lot of cameras... old Yashica Electros, new DSLRs, a new Voigtlander R4, a couple of modern little P&S digital cameras. I ended this process liking the Yashica and the Voigtlander best. Why? Because they both took me back to what I loved about photographing when I started in the 60s. I love that moment of "focus, snap, wind". No shutter lag, no LCD menu to deliberate with... all in a nice little jewel-like body that's a pleasure to hold. And of course, a lens that produces clear, well-rendered line and color.

So... it appears to me that the camera companies continue to dance around the digital camera design MANY of us are looking for. Maybe Leica will figure it out (but I doubt it... their egos won't let them), maybe Voigtlander, or maybe Ricoh! I swear... if Ricoh could figure out a way to put an APS-C size sensor in their GX-100 or in their GR-D cameras... they'd have a camera capable of winning over a huge number of young street photographers looking for something that produces serious results but doesn't require a $5000 body and $3000 lenses!!!

 

[sunsworth]

As I stated before, there are two premium lenses in the current Leica line-up, the 50f1.4 Asph and the 75/2 Summicron. The rest of the Leica line-up is either old technology or plain weird...

For once Tom I'm going to have to disagree with you. The 24mm Elmarit is a totally outstanding lens, one of the best I own, anything but old or weird - and yes I own the 75mm Summicron.

As for the 15mm Voigtlander, it's great value for money, but don't ever pretend that's it's comparable in image quality terms to the 24 or 75mm Leica lenses.

 

[sunsworth]

Well, I was thinking to the EOS 5D for example.

I have a 5D and an M8. The M8 is the better camera IMHO.

 

[splitimageview]

'A great value for the money' is what is making things difficult for Leica.

The patent expired on the M mount, and Leica didn't anticipate the flood of cheaper lenses, and were even slower to react once they hit the market.

I have a book on my shelf titled "It's not the Big that Eat the Small, it's the Fast that eat the Slow."

Leica is just plain slow, this is the first thing that must change. If they can't start anticipating instead of reacting, then it's a fait accompli.

 

[myoptic3]

I think Leica has gotten to where they are today, and it may be debated as to exactly where they are today, by updating an older design over many decades. It is obviously at the end of that design capability. If they decide to become more cost competitive their quality will drop drastically, so they wouldn't be Leica anymore. I do not think they can compete w/ Nikon or Canon engineering, as they haven't been making technologically advanced cameras. They have been updating an old RF design. The Japanese are many, many years ahead in R&D, not to mention actual products in the market place. So Leica has pretty much backed themselves into a corner. If their reputation has been based on doing the same thing over and over, and doing it well, what happens if they change their concept?

I like RF film cameras, but I am very much in the consumer minority. And I, like most people, don't buy new Leicas as they cost too much. The older models cost much less and have nearly all the features of the new ones. So Leica doesn't make a dime off me and the vast majority of Leica shooters. This cannot continue. The company will have to change, somehow. Right now they are in the position of being the best damn horse and buggy manufacturer in the world when the world is moving to horseless buggies.

Canon, Pentax, Nikon etc made their fortunes selling not only pro cameras, but by selling vastly popular and innovate cameras for the enthusiast at great prices. Leica's strategy and product have always been different from this model. They are not going to be able to compete w/ these guys. I think the only choice for them, other than becoming a smaller niche manufacturer w/ static product development, is to offer what I want. A small fast, high quality RF-like camera w/ interchangeable lenses and the capability to be used in AF or MF mode w/ few compromises. I am not a fan of digital, but I think this camera would have to be digital, and it would have to have a different sensor. One that could provide more exposure latitude and tonal range than the current sensors. It would have to look more film like for lack of a better word. They could still produce the film RF's for their aging, ever shrinking film shooter market.

I really don't think they currently have the digital engineers to do this, nor the money to hire them, so they will have to merge (be bought) by a deep pocket company.

 

[kevin m]

A pickup that will kick the ass of some European sports cars costing ten times as much...

Not on wet, narrow, bumpy roads it won't. I grew up a red-blooded midwestern kid and my first five cars were Mustangs. Three 66's, a 68 Fastback (just like Bullit!) and the last an '83 GT that I took to Greece and damn near died driving there. That lasted until I bought a VW GTI, a humble FWD hatchback that would run circles around the Mustangs of that era on real roads.

Funny, we're talking about Leica's possible demise, and here we've brought another dinosaur into the discussion: The V8 American "pony" car.

 

[anselwannab]

I just can't get into my Canon G9. I don't have a M8 to compare to, but in form it reminds me of my CL. The shutter lag and all the other stuff going on is just too much. Shooting the G9 is like trying to shoot skeet with a ping-pong gun, you have to be way ahead of any kind of action shot. That and it reall is, to me, a 6mp camera that gets upsized to 12mp. At anything beyond iso80 it is blurring everything.

Maybe two possible avenues. Fixed lens prime cameras, 35, 50, 90. Or real zooms for the M mount. Didn't some of the Canon RFs have variable zoom rangefinders?

 

[sunsworth]

The patent expired on the M mount, and Leica didn't anticipate the flood of cheaper lenses, and were even slower to react once they hit the market.

Flood? A couple of Konica that never really sold, one or two Voigtlander, and the same number of Voigtlander/Zeiss? Hardly a flood. Sure Gandy sells most of those, but not Leicas. I don't personally think Leica have been hit by the 'alternatives'.