Fake black M3 on eBay. Beware!

[Erik van Straten]

Only Leica records and owner provenance is reliable.

I honestly don't really understand the particular camera in this thread, a lot of trouble has been been expended creating a paper provenance, for so little money, it would appear.

As I said earlier, in Russia or Ukraine are specialists in making incredible good fakes, above all of the Leica I Anastigmat. These have become collector items too, as fakes, and are auctioned as such.
This particular camera reminds me of those. For the Russian manufactor the prices that we call modest are big sums.

Erik.

 

[splitimageview]

I naturally distrust any ebay listings that have associated paperwork. That's not to say some are not legit, however. It's just far too easy to fake these....much easier than faking black paint! And relatively few people know what original paperwork really looked like 50+ years ago...unlike telltale details on fake cameras. There is lots of information on the net on how to spot fake cameras; how many web pages show people how to spot fake papers?

There is one seller there who routinely has 'matching' paperwork for every Leica listing he sells. He's not hard to find if you look.

I've been watching him for over five years now...there is absolutely NO WAY that a seller can keep acquiring that many items with matching paperwork for that long a time period. Impossible.

Matching paperwork results in highly inflated final auction prices. Mundane Leica pieces, none particularly rare although all in excellent condition, will get thousands of dollars additional because of the matching paperwork and boxes. A $1,000 M3 might get $3,000 for example...not a bad return for maybe $50 of expense acquiring empty boxes and reprinting papers...

I know this for absolute fact as he has bought items from me that came with no matching serial number boxes or paperwork, and then resold them at a later date, this time magically appearing with 'original' paperwork and 'original' boxes with 'matching serial numbers.'

I have reported him to ebay several times. I did all the research for them.

I provided ebay with links to listings of:

(a) product boxes that he purchased (proven, via feedback, they were bought by him)
(b) lenses that he purchased from me

and the listings where he resold the very same lenses (confirmed via serial numbers in the photos) together with recreated paperwork with matching serial numbers, along with matching serial numbers on the so-called 'original' boxes.

He's been suspended off and on by ebay, but keeps reappearing. He's broken so many ebay rules its ridiculous, he's even given himself feedback between multiple accounts that he operates.

 

[rbsinto]

I naturally distrust any ebay listings that have associated paperwork. That's not to say some are not legit, however. It's just far too easy to fake these....much easier than faking black paint! And relatively few people know what original paperwork really looked like 50+ years ago...unlike telltale details on fake cameras. There is lots of information on the net on how to spot fake cameras; how many web pages show people how to spot fake papers?

There is one seller there who routinely has 'matching' paperwork for every Leica listing he sells. He's not hard to find if you look.

I've been watching him for over five years now...there is absolutely NO WAY that a seller can keep acquiring that many items with matching paperwork for that long a time period. Impossible.

Matching paperwork results in highly inflated final auction prices. Mundane Leica pieces, none particularly rare although all in excellent condition, will get thousands of dollars additional because of the matching paperwork and boxes. A $1,000 M3 might get $3,000 for example...not a bad return for maybe $50 of expense acquiring empty boxes and reprinting papers...

I know this for absolute fact as he has bought items from me that came with no matching serial number boxes or paperwork, and then resold them at a later date, this time magically appearing with 'original' paperwork and 'original' boxes with 'matching serial numbers.'

I have reported him to ebay several times. I did all the research for them.

I provided ebay with links to listings of:

(a) product boxes that he purchased (proven, via feedback, they were bought by him)
(b) lenses that he purchased from me

and the listings where he resold the very same lenses (confirmed via serial numbers in the photos) together with recreated paperwork with matching serial numbers, along with matching serial numbers on the so-called 'original' boxes.

He's been suspended off and on by ebay, but keeps reappearing. He's broken so many ebay rules its ridiculous, he's even given himself feedback between multiple accounts that he operates.

If what you say is true, (and I have no reason to doubt you, especially since I have no interest in Leica equipment either as shooters or collectibles) then why wouldn't you simply name this person in your thread, and possibly save some of your fellow RFF members money and grief?

 

[mkvrnn]

Well said rbsinto. I was thinking exactly the same thing as I read splitimageview's post.

 

[splitimageview]

I did exactly that some time ago, with links to all the listings.

The thread was deleted by management...

 

[dreamsandart]

original or not

original or not

As splitimageview said, I’ve seen the the same thing from this seller in Texas. Sold a rare lens to him years ago and saw it later with box and some paper. I was always amazed how he comes up with these items with everything like it was ‘NOS - new old stock’ from a Leica retailer in the 50S/60s consistently. His photos and presentation fairly standardised and I just looked up on eBay and see that the ID has changed, so he’s moving around. Still nice stuff, just not ‘as good as it gets’ as you may think.

As for the parts seller mentioned by johanielscom for his M3, that seller must have an inventory of new vintage BP parts that far surpasses Leica. Nice looking, but how does anyone come up with so much rare stuff in like-new “replacement part” condition? Its still good to find these parts original or not, and to his credit doesn’t says its ‘original’ (if I remember correctly years ago its was NOS), just ‘take a close look’, to cover his a^^ for the unsuspecting. I see he is listing a couple BP M3 ‘replacement’ top covers now with correct serial numbers, and Leica didn’t make duplicate numbered covers, they look ‘new’, so I imagine they are re-engraved before a nice new paint job. It may be nice to build up a camera to be almost like an original, but it does not make it the same as an original BP model. A repaint is still a repaint.

Rare Leica is big money and there are whose ready and willing to take advantage. Hands-on and even then only if you really know what you are doing (photos are sometimes difficult to see) and buyer beware. Even the experts can get fooled. The ageing/use effect can be a art form in itself 😉

 

[splitimageview]

That's him. He's in Houston. He has 3 ebay accounts, at least.

 

[Frontman]

By the way at least a dozen black paint Nikon SP cameras were assembled during the '90s from new parts, placed on chrome bodies. This is something I have direct knowledge of. In addition there are another dozen or so "hybrid" conversions, made from a mix of painted parts and new parts.

This is true. While out shopping for camera parts, I came across a batch of extras made for the 2005 SP. I was able to get the top and front covers, back cover, as well as the shutter lever cap, and a brand new rangefinder assembly. Now I just need to find an SP body to put them on.

 

[Trooper]

I really hope to see more threads like this.

So is the camera a real Leica with fraudulent papers?

 

[Scrambler]

I really hope to see more threads like this. So is the camera a real Leica with fraudulent papers?

A) no-one knows for sure except the seller but

B) it's most likely (almost certainly) a chrome camera, repainted, artificially worn and forged documents.

And this thread will actually make it easier to do better forgeries in future, posting comparison paperwork 😉

 

[bob338]

I think the seller you're talking about is the person who bought out most of the Midland factory inventory when they shuttered it. I heard he got the engraving set, too, so he *could* make things much more desirable than they might have been otherwise.

 

[Trooper]

...this thread will actually make it easier to do better forgeries in future, posting comparison paperwork 😉

You're absolutely right. But if copies of invoices are available from Leica, someone devious and motivated enough can get plenty of research material.

 

[bob338]

I emailed the seller and he responded that he wants 'at least $21k for it.'

 

[Trooper]

I emailed the seller and he responded that he wants 'at least $21k for it.'

Is that payable in counterfeit currency?

 

[bob338]

Is that payable in counterfeit currency?

If I had access to counterfeit currency, I would send an offer post haste!

 

[Bill58]

It was being sold from NJ, but no doubt originated from the Ukraine. Nice to see business is getting somewhat back to normal there now.

 

[plummerl]

So, further information from the seller, with regards to the M3 in question:

Hello Friend, So I contacted the representative of the estate sale and she was shocked. The owner of the camera is deceased, hence the estate sale. She contacted some of the family members concerning the camera and they said that their father has always collected rare Leica items, but they could not give any information regarding the authenticity. On top of that ..... "all sales are final" at estate sales ...... so I am stuck with this camera. I have emailed several Leica resources and I have gotten a few replies and apparently it looks like the camera itself is authentic. I hope I can still sell this camera. I may just post the camera without the documents. Like I said before I would appreciate any suggestions or help that you can offer. I have gotten so many emails concerning this camera that I am asking everyone for help. Thanks again. You were the one person who really helped me realize what I'm into here. Regards

Sounds like someone should help the seller with unsticking the camera.

 

[V-12]

Thanks again. You were the one person who really helped me realize what I'm into here. Regards

Sounds like a 'Hi Big Boy, I'm Olga from Russia......' type of felicitation. Send enough emails out and there is sure to be one gullible sucker.

V

 

[Frontman]

Are the tops serialized?

Amazing that these left Nikon, since clearly they were not likely legally sold for resale, but for repair only. But they join a long list of "back door" Nikon Rangefinder buys, some extraordinarily rare.

The top cover has a serial number, and it's in the 2005 SP range. I sometimes find interesting things out here, my favorites are cameras and parts which are left over "dead stock" (new, but unsold for decades) which turn up on the back shelves of old camera shops.

 

[kuuan]

So, after the observation about the Zip code in this thread, I simply posted a question to the seller.

Pointing out that the documentation seemed to be showing a Zip code in 1955, when Zip codes only existed from 1963, on.

My response from the seller:

"My God your right. Thank You so much for pointing this out. I acquired this item at an estate sale. Before I purchased the camera I checked to see if this company called Leica ever made cameras in black during that time and I found that they did. So I proceeded with the purchase. I checked your information and you are 100% correct. I am going to contact the estate sales lady in the morning. I guess I will also remove the auction. This is terrible news for me. I wonder if there is any way that this could still be authentic? Any more information you have would be appreciated greatly. Thank you so much for pointing this out. I have a lot of work to do to cancel this auction. Im going to start now. Thanks again and please let me know if you have anymore info regarding this camera. Regards"


If the level of knowledge this person has about Leicas is accurate, someone make an offer to her/him off EBAY. Wasn't expecting this response. If the camera is real, maybe they will go for a bit higher price.

I wonder if this is because English is not my mother tongue, but I find his wording very suspicious: 'this company called Leica' seems trying to suggest that he doesn't know anything about cameras or Leica, how come then that he knows having to check if it made all black cameras?