AShearer
Established
That's what much of this M8 debate seems to me. The expectations for what this camera would produce were, (in some cases) way too high. So much so as to be fantasy.
It's a digital capture device with a 10MP Kodak sensor in it. The main reason for it's being is to keep Leica in the game. The advantages would seem to be that one can use the superior Leica glass on a digital capture and the resultant benefits that brings vs. other glass; and the M form factor that we are so familiar and comfortable with.
Other than that, why would anyone think that Leica somehow magically could create a camera that would produce images far superior to other high end digital cameras with similar specs? Why? Based on what?
As to justifying the cost. How do you justify the cost of an MP or M7? There are great film cameras out there for much less. The Leica M costs what it costs, i.e. it is, what it is because of the manufacture process, the labor costs, the Leica brand etc. etc. . But, one cannot justify the cost against other digital cameras anymore than we can against other film cameras.
Although it is way too early to say, from what I've seen the Leica produces images about on par with other similar digital cameras. One glaring exception is the available lenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody makes lenses for 35mm that perform like Leica lenses? They are expensive, but they are extremely good.
If there is a widespread banding problem, it will likely be fixed in the firmware similar to the Nikon D200.
So, it may be that we let our expectations get away from us with the anticipation of the M8?
Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.
It's a digital capture device with a 10MP Kodak sensor in it. The main reason for it's being is to keep Leica in the game. The advantages would seem to be that one can use the superior Leica glass on a digital capture and the resultant benefits that brings vs. other glass; and the M form factor that we are so familiar and comfortable with.
Other than that, why would anyone think that Leica somehow magically could create a camera that would produce images far superior to other high end digital cameras with similar specs? Why? Based on what?
As to justifying the cost. How do you justify the cost of an MP or M7? There are great film cameras out there for much less. The Leica M costs what it costs, i.e. it is, what it is because of the manufacture process, the labor costs, the Leica brand etc. etc. . But, one cannot justify the cost against other digital cameras anymore than we can against other film cameras.
Although it is way too early to say, from what I've seen the Leica produces images about on par with other similar digital cameras. One glaring exception is the available lenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody makes lenses for 35mm that perform like Leica lenses? They are expensive, but they are extremely good.
If there is a widespread banding problem, it will likely be fixed in the firmware similar to the Nikon D200.
So, it may be that we let our expectations get away from us with the anticipation of the M8?
Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well said! And for me - a camera I have been waiting for. Had it not been for this one in the pipeline the only alternative is the RD1.
ClayH
Diana camera, coffee
I have the M8. The banding is real.
AShearer said:
MCTuomey
Veteran
The banding will be fixed, first through a firmware update, and more permanently through sensor modifications, that's my guess. Just like several of the Nikon and Canon digi bodies.
And as Alan said and Jaap implied, the M8 will end up being a fairly expensive way to capture light digitally through leica lenses and rangefinder handling - more than likely quite successfully. If the expectations are for something beyond this modest goal - some kind of raising of the bar for digi capture - then there'll be disappointment. Leica is behind the digi curve, not ahead of it. I agree with Alan. People who enjoy using leica equipment now have the digi capture option. That's excellent. But it will no doubt take time to see Leica's digital alternative efforts mature. Patience, everyone.
Mike
(user of digi gear now three generations old, or about 3.5 years)
And as Alan said and Jaap implied, the M8 will end up being a fairly expensive way to capture light digitally through leica lenses and rangefinder handling - more than likely quite successfully. If the expectations are for something beyond this modest goal - some kind of raising of the bar for digi capture - then there'll be disappointment. Leica is behind the digi curve, not ahead of it. I agree with Alan. People who enjoy using leica equipment now have the digi capture option. That's excellent. But it will no doubt take time to see Leica's digital alternative efforts mature. Patience, everyone.
Mike
(user of digi gear now three generations old, or about 3.5 years)
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rvaubel
Well-known
My goodness, voices of sanity. The M8 will be everything it ever could be, a top rank digital camera in a rangefinder form. Everything seems good to go so far except for this banding thing.
And this too shall pass
Rex
And this too shall pass
Rex
ClayH
Diana camera, coffee
I posted some comparison shots over at LUF showing how the banding gets worse at high ISOs. The bummer is that it is faint, but visible even at the lowest ISO. And this is not some extreme lighting situation. EV12 lights and EV4 background. Not like an arcwelder in a cave or something.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8672-banding-some-more-tests-4.html
My only expectation was that the camera would work decently in some pretty ordinary situations. I would not characterize my expectations as 'fantastic', but more along the lines of practical. My three year old 3.2MP Canon point and shoot digital is able to handle situations that cause the M8 to band horribly. So outsize expectations? No. Expectation that Leica would release a product that could match a $200 point and shoot? Yeah, I guess I did expect that.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8672-banding-some-more-tests-4.html
My only expectation was that the camera would work decently in some pretty ordinary situations. I would not characterize my expectations as 'fantastic', but more along the lines of practical. My three year old 3.2MP Canon point and shoot digital is able to handle situations that cause the M8 to band horribly. So outsize expectations? No. Expectation that Leica would release a product that could match a $200 point and shoot? Yeah, I guess I did expect that.
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willie_901
Veteran
rvaubel said:
What about the fringing (fringing and banding artifacts can arise from different sources)? The thermal noise. at ISO > 320 is underwhelming but pleasant.
Of course expectations are high. Why wouldn't expectations be high for a $5,000 camera?
murmur
Newbie
The D200 banding issue wasn't fixed through firmware. It required sending the camera to Nikon for a hardware fix.
Murray
Murray
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Thank you Alan Shearer.
Bob
Bob
Bob Ross
Well-known
Clay,ClayH said:
I'm curious if you processed your images in Capture one and if you tried the "Banding suppression" tool on the sharpening/NR control screen. The tool is there and I am wondering how good it might be for what we are seeing.
Bob
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
AShearer said:
I don't know that I'd call it grousing.
The first users are just now getting the new camera into their hands, pushing its limits, discovering issues that presumably Leica had not anticipated, and trying to document those issues as thoroughly as possible. I think that's a healthy process.
Remember when the R-D 1 firmware update came out, and suddenly its files were no longer opening in Adobe Camera Raw? That issue was discovered, quantified, submitted to Adobe (thanks, Sean!) and resolved in a matter of days thanks to this same process, and pretty much all of it happened right here on RFF.
IGMeanwell
Well-known
Here is a release about the D200 banding
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06021101nikond200banding.asp
However the way it is explained ... looks like its the type of problem that could easily be fixed with firmware
but hopefully Leica will offer to fix the problem at their expense
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06021101nikond200banding.asp
However the way it is explained ... looks like its the type of problem that could easily be fixed with firmware
but hopefully Leica will offer to fix the problem at their expense
ClayH
Diana camera, coffee
Yep, capture one pro. The banding tool does not appear to do much for this problem.
Bob Ross said:
AShearer
Established
jlw said:
I agree. There have been alot of reasoned posts about findings with the camera. I was really addressing the more outlandish trashing and sour grapes types.
I've seen the banding in posted shots. I suspect it is a real problem that needs to be addressed.
But, I have also seen shots posted here where the white balance was set wrongly for the light type, pushed to ISO 2500 under quartz lights and they don't look very good. But, the camera is not entirely responsible for that.
AShearer
Established
ClayH said:
Clay: I totally agree. And as I said, if it's a widespread problem, I would expect Leica will fix it. We have every right to expect that.
I was really talking about people who have posted sour grapes type diatribes that assume this camera will somehow not have any technical limits or issues because it's from Leica and it costs so much.
AShearer
Established
willie_901 said:
Again. I agree, but how high? Expectations should be very high, but realistic. There are a lot of very smart people making very well reasoned and thought out claims and findings about the camera.
But there is also a lot of nonsense being posted about how this camera should be perfect, beyond the limits, beyond reproach. "The images don't look any better than my 10mp DSLR etc." Well, why should they? Especially on a computer screen?
That's my point. I guess I didn't make it very clearly.
J. Borger
Well-known
It's time to focus on the fantastic quality of the M8 files .... they by far EXCEEDED my (already very high) expectations.
These reported issues ... which are real (and i experienced them myself) .. are blown wide out of proportion.
In fact there is only one issue left that needs to be sorted out .. the banding/ bleeding. All other issues are related to the M8/ colorprofile firmware/ software and can be handled/ corrected easily in processing. So they will be fixed with a firmware update and or update of the Capture One M8 Profile.
The banding .. and times it occurs is of no concern to me because i take perhaps 1 or 2 of that type of pictures per year anyway!
So even if this is a compromise i have to accept .. i would not sent my M8 back or have reconsidered the purchase if i had knew everything in advance.
That said .. i am also convinced the banding/ bleeding will be dealt with!
These reported issues ... which are real (and i experienced them myself) .. are blown wide out of proportion.
In fact there is only one issue left that needs to be sorted out .. the banding/ bleeding. All other issues are related to the M8/ colorprofile firmware/ software and can be handled/ corrected easily in processing. So they will be fixed with a firmware update and or update of the Capture One M8 Profile.
The banding .. and times it occurs is of no concern to me because i take perhaps 1 or 2 of that type of pictures per year anyway!
So even if this is a compromise i have to accept .. i would not sent my M8 back or have reconsidered the purchase if i had knew everything in advance.
That said .. i am also convinced the banding/ bleeding will be dealt with!
Ben Z
Veteran
The fact is, there's a reason they call these things bugs. The best most delicious meal is ruined if you find a bug in it. If I had found this banding thing with my $800 used Canon 20D (which I didn't, it's got no bugs) I would have instantly sent it back for a refund. I can't imagine myself accepting a $5000 Leica and waiting in faith for them to maybe come up with a fix. I would whisk it back to the dealer for a refund ASAP, and then when and if the bugs are fixed, take the plunge again. Warranties are good for random malfunctions. A system-wide glitch this (evidently) obvious should have been discovered and fixed before the sale. Just my IMHO. I'm not the early-adopter type, but I'm not being smug. I truly feel for the people who are having to deal with this and hope it in fact does get fixed.
c6gowin
Newbie
Without early adopter's, problems would never get fully identified and sorted out. I understand why some folks don't want to be early adopter's of a new product and prefer to jump in the game after everything has been sorted out. However, the bottom line is that someone has to be first. Everybody, can't sit the game out until there is a winning score. To each his own. The M8 is a big ticket item and the decision to be an early adopter is not to be taken lightly (as with any other product).
Ben Z
Veteran
That's one way to look at it, the one manufacturers would prefer 
Another way to look at it is, if early adopters all bagged their buggy cameras up and demanded refunds, then next time the company might make more sure they check things out ahead of releasing a product. Surely if half a dozen people find the same glitch the first day with the camera it couldn't have been that hard for Leica's techs to find in the months they've been working on the camera?
Another way to look at it is, if early adopters all bagged their buggy cameras up and demanded refunds, then next time the company might make more sure they check things out ahead of releasing a product. Surely if half a dozen people find the same glitch the first day with the camera it couldn't have been that hard for Leica's techs to find in the months they've been working on the camera?