Fantastic Expectations Unrealized

[jaapv]

These reported issues ... which are real (and i experienced them myself) .. are blown wide out of proportion.

I think this comment from a user about sums it up. Drive your new car and have the workshop sort a few glitches or stand waiting beside the road for the AA to get your old one going is not much of a choice for me...

 

[Ben Z]

Maybe things are a little different in Europe but here the majority tendency is no longer to buy a car outright and keep it until it's on its last legs. Most new autos in the US are leased, for 2-4 years, and covered by mfr's warranties the entire time. So it comes down to some cars you drive off the dealer's lot and never look back other than for oil changes, and others you spend more time driving a loaner than your own car. We had German and/or Swedish cars for 20 years, and practically lived at the dealer's. We now have a Lexus and an Acura, both of them were 1st-year models, neither of them has needed any service other than routine maintenance, and dozens of people I've spoken with have had similar experiences. There is no guarantee you can't get a lemon with any brand, but some brands have much better records than others. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the German brands fall into the less-reliable category and the Japanese into the more-reliable.

 

[newyorkone]

Maybe things are a little different in Europe but here the majority tendency is no longer to buy a car outright and keep it until it's on its last legs. Most new autos in the US are leased, for 2-4 years, and covered by mfr's warranties the entire time. So it comes down to some cars you drive off the dealer's lot and never look back other than for oil changes, and others you spend more time driving a loaner than your own car. We had German and/or Swedish cars for 20 years, and practically lived at the dealer's. We now have a Lexus and an Acura, both of them were 1st-year models, neither of them has needed any service other than routine maintenance, and dozens of people I've spoken with have had similar experiences. There is no guarantee you can't get a lemon with any brand, but some brands have much better records than others. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the German brands fall into the less-reliable category and the Japanese into the more-reliable.

Just to continue this off-topic discussion.

It's just coincidence. Our family drove only Toyotas and they were NOT trouble free. Far from it.

Going on 4th year of German car ownership...nothing but regularly scheduled maintainance. There is no rule and this applies especiially to Japanese cars because they've built up a mythology about their reliability which is in large part the fault of consumer reports...one of the most flawed testing organizations ever created.

 

[KM-25]

Very, very well put.

While this new camera is a Leica, it is still a digital camera. So while most on here will tweak, twist, post process, squeeze and prod digital images to get the special Leica glow and spend possibly hours doing it, I will use my M6 with great films, scan them if I need to and move on to the next great outing.

Digital has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before it truly lives up to the standards of what I personally have exeperienced a Leica image is supposed to look like.

By the way, If I had this camera, took it out on a job and experienced the banding, I would be very upset and would return it right away. There is no way in heck I could live with that in my style of shooting. Part of the reason I even own Leica is so I CAN shoot with out reagrd to flare in most conditions.

I'm sure they will fix it, but wow! What an oversight.

That's what much of this M8 debate seems to me. The expectations for what this camera would produce were, (in some cases) way too high. So much so as to be fantasy.

It's a digital capture device with a 10MP Kodak sensor in it. The main reason for it's being is to keep Leica in the game. The advantages would seem to be that one can use the superior Leica glass on a digital capture and the resultant benefits that brings vs. other glass; and the M form factor that we are so familiar and comfortable with.

Other than that, why would anyone think that Leica somehow magically could create a camera that would produce images far superior to other high end digital cameras with similar specs? Why? Based on what?

As to justifying the cost. How do you justify the cost of an MP or M7? There are great film cameras out there for much less. The Leica M costs what it costs, i.e. it is, what it is because of the manufacture process, the labor costs, the Leica brand etc. etc. . But, one cannot justify the cost against other digital cameras anymore than we can against other film cameras.

Although it is way too early to say, from what I've seen the Leica produces images about on par with other similar digital cameras. One glaring exception is the available lenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody makes lenses for 35mm that perform like Leica lenses? They are expensive, but they are extremely good.

If there is a widespread banding problem, it will likely be fixed in the firmware similar to the Nikon D200.

So, it may be that we let our expectations get away from us with the anticipation of the M8?

Much of the grousing being thrown about is not well thought out and is not grounded in the reality of the technology that is available and can be put to use in the camera, by Leica or anyone else.

 

[jaapv]

Just to continue this off-topic discussion.

It's just coincidence. Our family drove only Toyotas and they were NOT trouble free. Far from it.

Going on 4th year of German car ownership...nothing but regularly scheduled maintainance. There is no rule and this applies especiially to Japanese cars because they've built up a mythology about their reliability which is in large part the fault of consumer reports...one of the most flawed testing organizations ever created.

Still OT: I drive a Jaguar, which allegedly has a bad reputation for reliabilty. Last two years it came up 2nd in that leading reliability tests- just behind Lexus, and in front of all the rest of the Japanese, Germans etc. Also no problems for me the two years I had it from new - so what value reputations?

 

[Ben Z]

Japanese cars because they've built up a mythology about their reliability which is in large part the fault of consumer reports...one of the most flawed testing organizations ever created.

Well if you don't believe reports from consumers what do you put your trust in, the manufacturers' TV ads? I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had trouble with their Japanese cars, I just wish even one of them lived on my street 🙁


Jaap: Jaguar got it's bad rep when it was self-owned. Since it got bought by Ford it's come a long, long way up--which was no accident, Ford knew they had to turn that around with real customer satisfaction, that if they relied on a loyal old-time customer base or snob appeal to sell the car they'd go straight down the tube. There's a lesson for Leica in there....

 

[rvaubel]

That's one way to look at it, the one manufacturers would prefer 😀 Another way to look at it is, if early adopters all bagged their buggy cameras up and demanded refunds, then next time the company might make more sure they check things out ahead of releasing a product. Surely if half a dozen people find the same glitch the first day with the camera it couldn't have been that hard for Leica's techs to find in the months they've been working on the camera?

You have to have the "early adopter" mentality to be an early adopter. I purchased the infamous RD1 knowing that there was a cetain risk involved. So because of that I have had over a year of pleasure possessing the worlds only digital rangefinder. Those that dithered don't have that pleasure.

So it is with the M8. So far the banding issue, while serious, isn't a show stopper for me. It looks like it would effect only a small percentage of the shots I take.

If you were always to wait for the perfect product to be released, you would be waiting forever. Better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush.

Rex

 

[jaapv]

Well if you don't believe reports from consumers what do you put your trust in, the manufacturers' TV ads? I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had trouble with their Japanese cars, I just wish even one of them lived on my street 🙁


Jaap: Jaguar got it's bad rep when it was self-owned. Since it got bought by Ford it's come a long, long way up--which was no accident, Ford knew they had to turn that around with real customer satisfaction, that if they relied on a loyal old-time customer base or snob appeal to sell the car they'd go straight down the tube. There's a lesson for Leica in there....

But I bought mine for snob-appeal 🙁 😀😀

 

[Ben Z]

I shudder to think how much a fill-up on a Jag costs in the Netherlands. 😱 It must really be a case of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" 😀

 

[MarcoS]

Another OT opinion... I drive a BMW convertible and I have never encountered any issue in 4 years of use.
Lexus are fine cars, just not great... 😀

 

[jaapv]

I shudder to think how much a fill-up on a Jag costs in the Netherlands. 😱 It must really be a case of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" 😀

Diesel, my friend... 1.15 Euro a litre, 6.5 litres per 100 km.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I desperately would like to say something pithy about the pace of change, the price of gear, the need for perfection, the understandable desire for customer satisfaction and the earliness of early adoption of new tech.

But -- the following ain't it:

There were similar posts in various fora after the M7 came out, and the RD-1 and the D200, if I recall. Since those moments, millions of great photos have been made by folks using new equipment. Manufacturing is an iterative process. Solms will get it right eventually, I think. They usually have.

Ben

 

[IGMeanwell]

Cars reliablility is 8 times out of 10 how you drive it, how you maintain it, and to a lesser degree how it was made.

I have one of the ******* children of the auto industry (1989 was the year of mergers and when alot of cars were 50% US and 50% Japanese), and 1989 Eagle summit LX I bought in 1997 (the beginning of my Junior year of highschool) for $1500. 9 years later I am still driving the thing (it has 167,000 on it). I have never had a major issue with it, I do all my own mechanics, and when I have had it die (battery or once an alternator) it has been in my driveway. I still drive it because it has been so reliable, I even took a road trip in 2003 with it totaling right around 4500 miles in 3 weeks. It still gets 34 mpg!

Point being if you looked at Motor Trend, Car and Driver, or even Consumer Reports ... it was reported as one of the worst cars of that year and yet it has been nothing but a great car for me.

How this translates to cameras, well pay what you want for your camera, however you'll find real expensive cameras that will fail (many times an anomaly) and sometimes you'll have a cheap camera that will withstand Armageddon .

 

[nrb]

It is a sad day when we learn that the new M8 didn't fulfill our hopes and expectancies.
My Leica lenses will have to make do with keeping on film for some more time. At least film will allow them their proper angle of view.

 

[rolo]

I'm sure they will fix it, but wow! What an oversight.

Surely never an oversight. This must have been a judgement call. Undermining a product launch; capitalising on the enthusiasm of the buying audience boosted by the very positive reviews, versus, a quick fix programme and a firmware fix.

Leica controlled the use of images for weeks in advance of the launch, controlled the issue of cameras to the reviewers and started shipping a little earlier than most expected. Very well managed product launch, so why would they ever miss this banding issue.

The reviewers never had a chance to raise the flag, because their samples didn't exhibit the banding - 😕

Criticism - not at all, it's risk management. They are still in control and know how and when the fix will be in place. Leica would not go into a launch with a problem they didn't have the answer to.

 

[Ben Z]

Cars reliablility is 8 times out of 10 how you drive it, how you maintain it, and to a lesser degree how it was made.

Then every car I've owned has fallen into the 2 times out of 10 it did matter how it was made 😡

 

[ywenz]

Cars reliablility is 8 times out of 10 how you drive it, how you maintain it, and to a lesser degree how it was made.

reliability ratings of a car within the first few months of ownership has nothing to do with how it is maintained. It has everything to do with how the car was engineered and manufactured. No one can convince me that by average, a Range Rover is more reliable than a Toyota Landcruiser..

http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2006/02/17/reliable-luxury-cars-cx_dl_0221feat_ls.html

 

[georgl]

The camera is a professional digital-camera like 1dsMarkII, D2X, Hasselblad, period.
But it's not a sports-camera, not a studio-camera, it delivers professional quality in a much smaller body.
Although it has the lowest physical resolution in this "professional class" the real resolution combined with the superior lenses is at least as good as the 12MP-systems, and in certain situations even the 16MP of the 1dsMarkII are not an advantage (lens quality).
Dynamic range, RAW-quality - it's all full MF-back quality (because the technology is pretty similar).
1600 and 3200ASA (1250-2500 - 1/3EV) are even noisier than Canon 5D (I wouldn't use them here too often, too) but 800ASA are about as good and 200-400ASA is just great. What C1 is able to capture without filtering (noise reduction = 0) is just amazing!
But two things are really unique:
Build-quality and lens-quality! You can use lenses like the 1,4/35Asph at open aperture with great quality up to the edges!
The 16-21mm allows you extreme WA with great sharpness over the whole image field (try that with 2kg, 9000$ MarkII + 17-40/16-35...).

It is not perfect, banding is just not necessary, But I have to say that the camera is fully usable under normal circumstances. I've made >100pics of Berlin's night-live and only one picture at 800ASA had visible banding.
They will solve the problem pretty quickly, like they always did.
What does Canon do against WA-vignetting, weak lens-perfomance? A firmware-update ? ;-)


A few impressions:

P.S. I've just noticed that the crop of the house is already heavily damaged by compressing - but I hope you get the Idea how the real pictures look like - not just small web-jpgs.

 

[AShearer]

Wow; There are some really good posts on this thread. For the record, I agree with the notion that a consistently reproduceable problem that affects this camera is not acceptable. And, if it turns out to be the case, and a whole bunch of people, and early adopters at that, return the cameras or complain loudly to the point where Leica has to service every one ala the D200 then this would be very bad for Leica. It boggles my mind that they could miss something like that. I just don't see it happening. But, I guess it happened to Nikon?

I return to my point that some, not all have jumped on the banding bandwagon to reinforce previously held opinions that amount to "see, I told you it was a POS", "see, it 's digital, it's no good" "it cost way too much" and similar rants.

 

[MarkM6]

Yup!

Yup!

I was really addressing the more outlandish trashing and sour grapes types.

You mean those who have no plan to ever buy one in the first place?