fed 2 woes

[back alley]

it's not my day.

i have wasted 2 rolls of film trying to figure out my fed 2 and the film advance.
i could feel that the film advance was just not right in the camera so i decided to rewind it and try it again but with the back off so i could see what was happening.
so i start to rewind the film and then it's stuck and not moving. being a less than patient man i forced the rewind and the film snapped.
i opened the back only to find that the film has sandwiched itself between the take up spool and the wind/rewind sprocket guide.
so i tried with another roll and with the back off. it worked perfectly. wind and rewind, just perfect.
so i used the same roll and tried it with the back on this time.
not so perfect. the film got sandwiched again and refused to rewind after a couple of turns. this time i did not force it but removed the back and rewound.
so, it is me or the camera?
could it be the pressure plate?
i don't think i'm loading it improperly, i know the film winds 'backwards'.
it's frustrating. another wasted roll of film and it will have cost me almost as much as the camera.
i need some here...!:bang:

joe

 

[Rich Silfver]

You know..it just may be more cost-beneficial for you to just buy an M3/M2/M4... 🙂 On photo.net someone just offered a user M3 for 500 dollars... 🙂

 

[rover]

On photo.net someone just offered a user M3 for 500 dollars... 🙂

Where, I can't find it. I know it is 2:15am here on the right coast, but it isn't there.

 

[Rich Silfver]

This one: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=008zXc

Look for Jeremy

 

[taffer]

Woa, that $500 M3 is tempting even me ! More when I learned yesterday the finder can be upgraded to that of a M6J 😀

Well, anyway. To the point in question.

Joe, I know this is a dumb question but just to be sure. You're turning the rewind collar (the piece surrounding the shutter release) from 'C' (advance) to the 'Pi' (rewind) no ?

I'm looking at it just know and can't find a reason why the back should interfere with the wind/rewind process. Please, if you haven't done this yet, take a look here:

http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/manual1.html

Ok I know it's in russian (hey, they are on their right after all 😉) but the diagrams and drawings are universal, this one is exactly what we want:
http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/manual13.html

Damn ! What are those lazy scientist doing ? If they had already developed the teletransportation machine now I could show you how it works and see if there's a real problem with your camera.

It's not that difficult no ? After all they can simply do some reversal engineering from the ones on Star Trek... 😉

Joe, keep those dumb rolls and keep practicing with them, or maybe go to your store and ask them for dummy wasted rolls. And please keep me posted.

 

[Laika]

Re: fed 2 woes

it's not my day...<snip>...i opened the back only to find that the film has sandwiched itself between the take up spool and the wind/rewind sprocket guide....i need some here...!:bang:

joe

Sorry to hear your having problems with your FED, I'll post a couple of pics and things to try that should help sometime this weekend, I'm about to go out now.. I can't understand how the film is jamming up. 😕

 

[rover]

Thanks Richard, I had just done a late night scan looking to tempt myself, then came here and saw your post. Went back and still didn't see it. I feel better that it wasn't a FS ad at least. I sent a couple questions over to the owner, we shall see what happens.

 

[back alley]

richard, while it's tempting i actually enjoy my bessa. maybe down the road but not soon.
oscar, thanks for the manual. i just signed up for a russian language class over the net. i think i have been doing what needs to be done. the collar round the shutter release etc. oh and by the way, when they get the transporter working, you're invited over for a coffee.
laika, pics would be nice, thanks!

joe

 

[Laika]

Joe,
I’m still not sure where your film jam is happening but here are a couple of pics that may clear things up (?) … 1. Is a late model fixed take up spool – 2. Is a normal FED2 removable spool – 3. Is the body molding so the back can lock in place, note it can get in the way getting the removable spool out of the camera – 4. The spool removed, note the spool retainer in the body is spring mounted, it’s ok if it flexes as you pull the spool out - 5. The removable spool with film inserted ready for loading – 6. The spool loaded into the camera…. I insert the spool and wind a little and make sure the film is lining up with the teeth in the shaft next to the spool, then I drag the cassette across the body and insert it into position, then I use the film rewind to take up the slack and put a bit of tension on the film, check the film teeth alignment is still ok and then the back goes on, wind and fire off a couple of frames (the rewind knob should be turning) and your good to go. When you finish the roll you push and twist the collar around the shutter button, internally this allows the toothed shaft to free wheel and the spool can unwind its film as you turn the rewind knob. I haven’t come across anything that can go wrong unless something isn’t working as it should… maybe the toothed shaft not free wheeling in rewind mode or maybe if some of the sprocket holes on the film are torn (improper loading?) and jam on the edge of the pressure plate causing a tear as you rewind…. This may be all obvious stuff, let us know how you get on.

 

[back alley]

ok this is good!
in pic #2, there is a removable take up spool and to the near left of it is what i would call a film/sprocket guide (spool)

after i advance the film a few frames, it (the film) starts to go under the film guide spool and collect/sandwich. then it jams and nothing moves.
it's like the take up spool is not turning and pulling the film so it starts to go under the other spool.

am i making sense?

joe

ps thanks very much for the effort laika

 

[Laika]

Joe,
With the back off and no film loaded try dry firing a few shots, now gently rest your other thumb on the film spool and over successive winds increase the pressure. How hard it to stop the spool turning? ... I can stop all of my FEDs with removable spools but I have a couple of non-shooters that have very little tension and thinking about it would likely have a similar problem to yours in use. The film/sprocket guide and the take up spool are connected by gears (easy to see with the spool out) so the amount of tension on the take up spool by the spring fingers (seen in pic 4) is really the only weak link unless the connecting gears are slipping, worn or loose. First thing I’d try would be to clean the spring fingers and inside of the film spool and maybe use a flat screwdriver to open up the fingers a touch and reload your test film and see if it helps. It would be nice if that was the problem, a easy fix …. Fingers crossed.

 

[back alley]

ok i did as you suggested -

the take up spool stops but the film advance continues. i took the spool off and tried the same experiment with the spindle that the spool attaches to. it stops if i apply pressure to the spindle but the film advance dial continues to turn.

so if there is resistance with film in the camera, the film would not advance because the spindle is turning but the spool is not.
have i got this right?

joe

 

[taffer]

Joe, hope you can finally solve that problem. My take up spool can also be hold in place when some pressure is applied but seems there's no real problem in use.

It's a great little camera, hope you can put yours to work soon.

Oscar

 

[Laika]

...so if there is resistance with film in the camera, the film would not advance because the spindle is turning but the spool is not.
have i got this right?

joe

Yup, that's what I'm thinking, the spool is slipping but the film/sprocket guide is still feeding it as it should so the film is just bunching up till it jams.... get some more tension on the spool and try it with your test film and see how it goes.

 

[back alley]

laika, it's not just the spool that's spinning (say that 3 times fast) but the spindle that the spool is attached to is also spinning freely.
i tried to tighten it some but that did nothing. although when i loosened it the spindle turned even easier.
\

joe

 

[Laika]

laika, it's not just the spool that's spinning (say that 3 times fast) but the spindle that the spool is attached to is also spinning freely.
i tried to tighten it some but that did nothing. although when i loosened it the spindle turned even easier.
\

joe

Ok, with the spool removed does it look like the gears are aligned? (spindle to small gear on body) or has the spindle slipped down so the gears are no longer connected?

 

[back alley]

all gears look good and connected as they should be.

joe

 

[Laika]

all gears look good and connected as they should be.

joe

Ok, the spindle should be able to twist but is should be tight enough so as not to slip as it spools on the film. I'd unscrew the spool and give it and the surface is mates to on the body gear a clean, have a look at the photos in the link below to see how it goes together, don't worry there isn't anything tricky about this. Note you will be able to stop the spool spinning as you wind even when its as it should be, the film/sprocket guide is over coming the pressure plate and film canister tension so the spool doesn't really have any work to do.

http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/swap_it_out.html

edit: I'm hoping you have a spring in the spindle like in the link photos? A small washer or two might help if the spring is a bit short.

 

[Doug]

Does the friction between the press-on spool and its spindle act like a clutch? There must be a clutch in the mechanism somewhere, since as the film wraps around the spool the diameter increases so the spool can't rotate as much in relation to the film-advance sprocket.

I'd guess that this necessary slippage is designed into that spindle/spool clearance. Just enough friction to have the spool pull the film enough but not so little friction as to let the film pile up between sprocket and spool.

The earlier suggestion to use a small flat-bladed screwdriver to spread the slots on the spindle a bit to make the spool a tighter fit sounds like a good place to start...

Does this sound reasonable, given your knowledge of the system, Laika?

 

[Laika]

Does the friction between the press-on spool and its spindle act like a clutch? There must be a clutch in the mechanism somewhere, since as the film wraps around the spool the diameter increases so the spool can't rotate as much in relation to the film-advance sprocket.

I'd guess that this necessary slippage is designed into that spindle/spool clearance. Just enough friction to have the spool pull the film enough but not so little friction as to let the film pile up between sprocket and spool.

The earlier suggestion to use a small flat-bladed screwdriver to spread the slots on the spindle a bit to make the spool a tighter fit sounds like a good place to start...

Does this sound reasonable, given your knowledge of the system, Laika?

The clutch part of it is in the spindle to gear fit (the spool shouldn't slip on the spindle), the spring inside it can vary the tension. But if the spring is too short (compressed over the years) or it's missing a washer or two the screw bottoms out before there is enough tension. Later models do away with the removable spool (see the link in my last post) but still retain the internal spring.

My knowledge of the system? I learn something new every time I work on these cameras 🙂