pocho_1976
Canonet 1961 user
i just bought this fed from ebay, but its doesn't seem right for a nkvd, i miss the three screws under the rewind knob, the top front center screw is not under the lens rim and accessory clip looks like zorky to me. what do you think??
the camera cost me 60 dollars post included from fsu.
the camera cost me 60 dollars post included from fsu.
Frontman
Well-known
It looks original enough to me. To tell if it's really an FED, it should have the shorter spindle for the film spool; Zorkis come with a long spindle. As for the accessory shoe, I've seen both types on FED and Zorki cameras. I have the same type of accessory shoe on one of my NKVD cameras. These cameras are often missing screws, they tend to loosen up and fall off, or perhaps get lost during repair, and often parts are swapped from one camera to another at repair shops.
radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
could you please provide a picture with opened bottom plate?
pocho_1976
Canonet 1961 user
i'll ask for more detailed pictures from the seller, i send all the cameras that i bought from fsu to a friend in kiev for cla and curtain replace and then he send it back to me, took some time but it's cheaper than send it to CLA here (california).
brachal
Refrigerated User
The lens is an Industar-22, not a Fed lens. It's also coated, which wouldn't be the case on a NKVD Fed lens. Of course the lens can be changed. The front center screw by the lens mount is also in the wrong place. I'd say it's a Zorki-1, probably an early one judging from the shutter release. $60 bucks isn't a bad price, so don't feel too bad.
martin_t
Established
The four front shell-to-chassis screws are definitely Zorki.
ZorkiKat
ЗоркийК&
It looks like a real NKVD. I have several of them with the same features, including the shutter button style. The serial number puts it at later, albeit prewar, production date where the modifications in detailing could have been applied. Things like the screws under the rewind knob disappeared quite early.
The lens is not the original FED I-10, but an I-22. So there is a chance that the camera had been modified to accept later or standardised LTM lenses. The lens mount may have been changed as well to allow the lens change. The modifications may also explain why the screws in front look different.
The lens is not the original FED I-10, but an I-22. So there is a chance that the camera had been modified to accept later or standardised LTM lenses. The lens mount may have been changed as well to allow the lens change. The modifications may also explain why the screws in front look different.
Frontman
Well-known
Your camera looks just like a FED 1d, which would have the same screw pattern on the front as a Zorki. The shutter release on your camera looks like an FED type, the Zorki would most likely use the mushroom-type collar.
The easiest ways to tell would be to remove the lens and look at the rangefinder cam, and remove the bottom cover and look at the film spool spindle, but from what I can see by looking at the supplied pictures, I would say that it's an FED 1d. There were 78,000 made, so it's not an uncommon camera.
The easiest ways to tell would be to remove the lens and look at the rangefinder cam, and remove the bottom cover and look at the film spool spindle, but from what I can see by looking at the supplied pictures, I would say that it's an FED 1d. There were 78,000 made, so it's not an uncommon camera.
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pauls52
Established
To the OP, your camera is 76299. From the http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1685060714 site, this is likely to be a FED 1c type 1. The engraving is also consistent with Princelle 1b and 1c (the c has the new shape rangefinder cover). According to Oscar Fricke, your camera is likely to have been made in the second half of 1938.
According to sovietcams, the three screws under the rewind knob disappeared after 87000 and the screw was moved from under the mount after 92000. The accessory shoe is almost definitely not from a FED 1. From a 1b to a 1g, these had pressed indentations.
There are unexplained anomalies with FSU cameras, even in some cases supported by passports. Also, sovietcams is dealing with cameras discovered so far - there are no supporting factory documents found and as far as the Soviets were concerned, there was no FED 1a, 1b etc (a collector's nomenclature invented by a Frenchman), just a FED with gradual improvements and engraving changes to reflect the political situation.
It seems to be three possibilities with your camera. It could be a genuine 1c fixed up with a different shoe (probably Zorki 1c or later) and as ZorkiKat explained, a non-standard and postwar I-22 (made by KOMZ rather than KMZ, possibly an early 1950s "aftermarket" item rather than standard Zorki issue). If that is the case, your camera could push forward the earliest known of the 1c type 1s an 2s (as just happened with me with a 1b). Like some others, it could be an unexplained freak (in the nicest way). Or it could be a parts camera - it could be, as others have noted, still be mainly FED parts or maybe even only the rangefinder cover has been changed on a later body.
The only way to tell is to examine closely and compare to known features of various types. If it is a genuine 1c, the camera definitely should have a brass shutter cage rather than aluminium and a hole in the pressure plate.
Regards,
Paul
According to sovietcams, the three screws under the rewind knob disappeared after 87000 and the screw was moved from under the mount after 92000. The accessory shoe is almost definitely not from a FED 1. From a 1b to a 1g, these had pressed indentations.
There are unexplained anomalies with FSU cameras, even in some cases supported by passports. Also, sovietcams is dealing with cameras discovered so far - there are no supporting factory documents found and as far as the Soviets were concerned, there was no FED 1a, 1b etc (a collector's nomenclature invented by a Frenchman), just a FED with gradual improvements and engraving changes to reflect the political situation.
It seems to be three possibilities with your camera. It could be a genuine 1c fixed up with a different shoe (probably Zorki 1c or later) and as ZorkiKat explained, a non-standard and postwar I-22 (made by KOMZ rather than KMZ, possibly an early 1950s "aftermarket" item rather than standard Zorki issue). If that is the case, your camera could push forward the earliest known of the 1c type 1s an 2s (as just happened with me with a 1b). Like some others, it could be an unexplained freak (in the nicest way). Or it could be a parts camera - it could be, as others have noted, still be mainly FED parts or maybe even only the rangefinder cover has been changed on a later body.
The only way to tell is to examine closely and compare to known features of various types. If it is a genuine 1c, the camera definitely should have a brass shutter cage rather than aluminium and a hole in the pressure plate.
Regards,
Paul
martin_t
Established
Nice link. I was wrong. The screws are not 'definitely' Zorki.
ZorkiKat
ЗоркийК&
The screws used can change. They never were used to identify models. However the number used can.
Tthe tabs on the shoe were present in the earlier models. But these too disappeared even in those marked NKVD.
Nor were the holes in the round pressure plate also present throughout.
The cam tip of the rf follower arm was initially oval/rectangular shaped. But some of the NKVD had the tiny tear-drop shaped cam tips too.
The middle screw on fastening the top to the chassis changed positions too. In the earliest ones, this was located behind the lens mount. Over time, this moved slightly to the left, allowing it to be removed without taking the lens mount off.
Mounts can be easily interchanged since the screw holes in all the mounts coincided.
There was also a hidden fastening screw below the lens mount. Its head was inside, below the shutter crate. It fastened the lower part of the crate to the body shell. The early crates, made of stamped brass, perhaps were not rigid enough and had to be fastened at the lower part too. The later crates lost this 'hidden' screw.
A lot of changes in the FED-1 happened within and not outside. The shutter drum pulleys in the early NKVDs were beveled. The later ones were just plain discs.
And the last of the FED apparently used the single piece shutter crate made by Zorki. The FED 1g with serial numbers above 59X XXX have this single moulded, die cast crate instead of the stamped and rivetted brass crates.
Valkir1987
Well-known
I have nr. 76777 here which has the same type of release button, but has all previous features like the three screws under the rewind knob. Which your camera has not. The body shell looks like from a Zorki 1b. (you can see the a little bow without volcanite where the base plate fits on the edges.
This is probably a camera made from many others. Like many, and I am wondering day by day why there are so much camera's with mixed up parts.
This is probably a camera made from many others. Like many, and I am wondering day by day why there are so much camera's with mixed up parts.
wolves3012
Veteran
My NKVD is a bit later, 1939 I think, serial 99254. It looks identical to yours apart from the shoe, which is flat-based and has the indentations on top of the "ears". The engraving is, of course, the CCCP variation.
wolves3012
Veteran
Where exactly is this screw? I have re-curtained mine and it has the stamped brass crate you describe. I don't recall finding such a screw when I did the work so I'm wondering if it is missing. There's a film in the camera right now so I can't check. Is it likely that is should be there? S/N is 99254, if that helps.
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pauls52
Established
According to Oscar Fricke, one of the more renowned FED documenters, the screw was eliminated between 47066 and 50501. This was still the 1b body type, the one with the rounded "toilet seat" rangefinder covers. My camera, 46526, still has the short screw which passes through a tab a the bottom of the crate and screws into the bottom edge of the body. It is only the body thicknss that the screw can bite into.
Regards,
Paul
pauls52
Established
ZorkiKat is one of the very few sources, maybe only source, to note the 1g change to the Zorki crate, including flat spring. I've observed the similarity from mainly eBay and other site photos and have noted the same serial number range (1955). I have always wondered whether it actually was the Zorki crate itself or a design change.
However, whilst I have never dismantled a FED shutter and could easily be talking through my hat, all the documentation I have read suggests that FED changed from brass to aluminium construction for their shutter crate at between serial numbers 125000 and 150000 (around 1940). My two 1gs certainly appear to be aluminium (numbers 466xxx and 531xxx). In other words, there have been three basic designs: brass, aluminium and Zorki aluminium.
I'm just quoting from Sovietcams and other sites but if there is a contrary view, I'm certainly interested to know.
Cheers,
Paul
ZorkiKat
ЗоркийК&
Wolves, there is a tab at the bottom of the crate where this screw goes. As Paul noted, this disappeared sometime, perhaps when the "toilet seat" style top plate was replaced with the angled version. This crate belongs to a FED with serial number 32 191:
The screw for this tab is gone and I have not found a suitable replacement.
ZorkiKat
ЗоркийК&
Paul, I suspect that the last FED-1 used Zorki crates. The solid cast crates I found in these FED resemble the crates found in Zorki. The only difference is that almost all those installed in FED had their film guide rails ground down. So ground down that the rails left would not have been better if they were just painted on the surface. The filing was done to allow the Zorki crate to fit in the FED body chassis, which retained the dimensions originally set for the stamped crates.
The best types of stamped crates I found are the 1940s aluminium ones. Shiny metal which would have been originally painted black. The black paint is almost gone, worn by film travelling through. But quite stable compared to the earlier brass stamped crates.
pocho_1976
Canonet 1961 user
thanks for the replies, my main issue is the center screw, it has the top of the shutter button engraved with concentric circles as it should, also has the z and the old speed progression on the speed dial: Z 20 30 40 60 100 200 500.
the lens can be an upgrade, but according to production numbers
http://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Documents_by_Fricke/prod_numbers.htm
and generations details
http://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Documents_by_Fricke/fed_detail.htm
except for the center screw should be a mid 1938 camera.
i don't think it is a zorki, if it was one should be a 1b, because it has three screws on the back, and the body looks made of brass
http://zorki1c.com/camera/zorki1.html
http://zorki1c.com/camera/z1bdetail.html
more about fed-zorki diferences
http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page391.htm
as soon as I get more pictures i'll post it.
the lens can be an upgrade, but according to production numbers
http://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Documents_by_Fricke/prod_numbers.htm
and generations details
http://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Documents_by_Fricke/fed_detail.htm
except for the center screw should be a mid 1938 camera.
i don't think it is a zorki, if it was one should be a 1b, because it has three screws on the back, and the body looks made of brass
http://zorki1c.com/camera/zorki1.html
http://zorki1c.com/camera/z1bdetail.html
more about fed-zorki diferences
http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page391.htm
as soon as I get more pictures i'll post it.
ZorkiKat
ЗоркийК&
I checked my FED NKVD cameras again. Turned out I have 9, instead of just 5 which I originally thought 
.
The concentric pattern on the shutter button appears on two of them, but variants several thousand numbers apart.
One (SN58 XXX- five digits) has the same shutter button. But has the toilet seat top, tabbed shoe, and three screws under the rewind knob. Yours (SN 76299) has the cornered top, and may have been made after the changes (no more oval toilet seat styles, tabbed shoes, or screws under the RW).
Two other (SN 155 XXX and 119 XXX -six digits) have the same shutter buttons too. All the detailing is the same as the later FED-1. Both are engraved "КОМБИНАТ" on top. Other than this, everything else seen on them are the same as your camera.
Another one, with a 5 digit SN (81X XX), made after your camera, also has the same features as your camera- no tab on the shoe, but no concentric patterns on the shutter button.
Most of my NKVD have oval "toilet seat" styles. These have 5 digit serial numbers. One more characteristic common among them is the small pin that holds the base plate in place. This is smaller than the one found in Leica or later FED or Zorki. The highest one amongst these (81 XXX) has the styling of the later FED- angled top cover, no tab in the shoe, and large baseplate pin.
The two NKVD with six digit numbers follow the styling of the later FED.
One more thing which changed in Kiev is the spool spindle. The early ones were full and extended all the way to the base plate. The later ones- all of the 1g- had half-spindles. This complicates the fitting of spools.
Those were written before I found more variations inside FED cameras. I should revise this and include the observations about the type 1g variants.
The centre screw (close to the mount?) moved to the left early on. I think those made around 1939 would have this.
The earliest Zorki are just like FED. The bodies will interchange. The prewar FED have tougher body shells than the early Zorki.
.The concentric pattern on the shutter button appears on two of them, but variants several thousand numbers apart.
One (SN58 XXX- five digits) has the same shutter button. But has the toilet seat top, tabbed shoe, and three screws under the rewind knob. Yours (SN 76299) has the cornered top, and may have been made after the changes (no more oval toilet seat styles, tabbed shoes, or screws under the RW).
Two other (SN 155 XXX and 119 XXX -six digits) have the same shutter buttons too. All the detailing is the same as the later FED-1. Both are engraved "КОМБИНАТ" on top. Other than this, everything else seen on them are the same as your camera.
Another one, with a 5 digit SN (81X XX), made after your camera, also has the same features as your camera- no tab on the shoe, but no concentric patterns on the shutter button.
Most of my NKVD have oval "toilet seat" styles. These have 5 digit serial numbers. One more characteristic common among them is the small pin that holds the base plate in place. This is smaller than the one found in Leica or later FED or Zorki. The highest one amongst these (81 XXX) has the styling of the later FED- angled top cover, no tab in the shoe, and large baseplate pin.
The two NKVD with six digit numbers follow the styling of the later FED.
One more thing which changed in Kiev is the spool spindle. The early ones were full and extended all the way to the base plate. The later ones- all of the 1g- had half-spindles. This complicates the fitting of spools.
Those were written before I found more variations inside FED cameras. I should revise this and include the observations about the type 1g variants.
The centre screw (close to the mount?) moved to the left early on. I think those made around 1939 would have this.
The earliest Zorki are just like FED. The bodies will interchange. The prewar FED have tougher body shells than the early Zorki.