Trius
Waiting on Maitani
That's a whole different topic/thread.
LeicaM3
Well-known
oh, well
oh, well
I practice at a US academic teaching hospital. We as well as other institutions advise patients with atherosclerosis to minimize intake of animal based protein and fat as much as possible.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/askdietician/ask8_01.aspx
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/women/nutritioncorner_vegetarian.aspx
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1520-037X.2001.00538.x/full
Additional, there is epidemiological and labaratory level III evidence for a link between animal based protein intake and cancerogenesis.
I would encourage you to critically review the available literature (google supersensitive search strategy or check the Cochrane library on how to) and then decide yourself what you think.
It is a complex topic, but to dismiss it outright appears to be premature based on the available peer reviewed literature.
oh, well
I practice at a US academic teaching hospital. We as well as other institutions advise patients with atherosclerosis to minimize intake of animal based protein and fat as much as possible.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/askdietician/ask8_01.aspx
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/women/nutritioncorner_vegetarian.aspx
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1520-037X.2001.00538.x/full
Additional, there is epidemiological and labaratory level III evidence for a link between animal based protein intake and cancerogenesis.
I would encourage you to critically review the available literature (google supersensitive search strategy or check the Cochrane library on how to) and then decide yourself what you think.
It is a complex topic, but to dismiss it outright appears to be premature based on the available peer reviewed literature.
tojeem
Enthusiast
various posters said:
OP here. Actually, I just wanted to get a discussion going.
Thanks for the replies, all. It's an interesting issue.
Stephen
ampguy
Veteran
Hi Paul
Hi Paul
There was a study done on a large population in China that did not eat much meat, and had very little heart disease, and relatively long lifespans. The book is called "The China Study" and it is great reading.
Dan Buettner's studies on where people live the longest also has several areas where meat eating is minimal.
Several cancers have been identified with higher incidences when higher amounts of meat are eaten.
If you want to eat meat, this may be fine, but you should have the balls to go hunt and kill your own animals for food, or raise them, and not pay a middle man to do the dirty work for you. IMHO.
Hi Paul
There was a study done on a large population in China that did not eat much meat, and had very little heart disease, and relatively long lifespans. The book is called "The China Study" and it is great reading.
Dan Buettner's studies on where people live the longest also has several areas where meat eating is minimal.
Several cancers have been identified with higher incidences when higher amounts of meat are eaten.
If you want to eat meat, this may be fine, but you should have the balls to go hunt and kill your own animals for food, or raise them, and not pay a middle man to do the dirty work for you. IMHO.
Thardy
Veteran
If I had a crystal ball years ago I would have learned Mandarin, become a Cardiologist and moved to China. With growing capitalism and adoption of the western diet a Cardiology practice would be extremely lucrative.
jwc57
Well-known
Jobin33
Established
I could care less.
ampguy
Veteran
yes
yes
regarding meat, many consider moderation and portion sizes/low frequency to be a healthy thing.
For example, Okinawans are also one of Buettner's "blue zones" but they eat pork and fish there, but in portions much less than a western sized portion. They also walk, run, swim, farm, etc. to stay fit.
Mormon's used to not eat meat, but the last few decades they kind of forgot about that rule and now eat meat like cannibals. Studies show that while they outlive the rest of the population, they don't reach the longevities of the seventh day adventurers who also don't smoke or drink, but about half of the members are vegetarians.
yes
regarding meat, many consider moderation and portion sizes/low frequency to be a healthy thing.
For example, Okinawans are also one of Buettner's "blue zones" but they eat pork and fish there, but in portions much less than a western sized portion. They also walk, run, swim, farm, etc. to stay fit.
Mormon's used to not eat meat, but the last few decades they kind of forgot about that rule and now eat meat like cannibals. Studies show that while they outlive the rest of the population, they don't reach the longevities of the seventh day adventurers who also don't smoke or drink, but about half of the members are vegetarians.
Thardy
Veteran
kode
Member
I eat meat to some extent, but I try to make sure that the animals I consume have had a good life. I prefer game, mostly because then I know that the animal lived free up until me or someone in the hunting team shot it, and I can follow the process completely from then to the plate. Many aspects of the meat industry I dislike. Haven't really paid much mind to the gelatin in film, but I guess I'll hope it came from happy animals.
Jamie123
Veteran
I guess I must be misunderstanding something here about Veganism. I thought always thought that Veganism means completely avoiding any and all kinds of animal products in one's nutrition but what you seem to be saying is that one should not eat much meat or animal fats and base one's diet primarily on plant based foods. That's not the same thing. Also, at least one of your links is about vegetarianism. Vegetarianism and veganism are not the same as you surely knows.
It is certainly a complex topic and I'm not at all dismissing that one can live a healthy vegan lifestyle. What I find peculiar, though, is the argument that a vegan diet is inherently healthy while a non-vegan one is inherently unhealthy.
You can eat vegan food and live incredibly unhealthy and you can eat some meat and animal products and live very healthily.
ampguy
Veteran
Jamie
Jamie
I could be wrong, but as a vegetarian (lacto-ova), I think of Veganism as some sort of political party or cult, having little to do with diet.
Vegetarians generally don't ingest meats like beef, pork, cat, dog, birds, fish. Animal by products in film wouldn't have anything to do with vegetarians, unless film was a part of their diet. But some vegetarians do use animal by products, and even eat some (e.g. dairy, wearing leather that came from cows, lacto/ova - eating dairy).
Vegans on the other hand, often do not wear or use products made from animal by-products, and could probably care less about their own health, probabyl do not bathe regularly, but do care about other living animals, and would therefore possibly have issues with animal-gelatin based film product use.
Jamie
I could be wrong, but as a vegetarian (lacto-ova), I think of Veganism as some sort of political party or cult, having little to do with diet.
Vegetarians generally don't ingest meats like beef, pork, cat, dog, birds, fish. Animal by products in film wouldn't have anything to do with vegetarians, unless film was a part of their diet. But some vegetarians do use animal by products, and even eat some (e.g. dairy, wearing leather that came from cows, lacto/ova - eating dairy).
Vegans on the other hand, often do not wear or use products made from animal by-products, and could probably care less about their own health, probabyl do not bathe regularly, but do care about other living animals, and would therefore possibly have issues with animal-gelatin based film product use.
filmfan
Well-known
Probably the most entertaining thing I have read here on RFF in a long time! You have a wicked sense of humor.
benlees
Well-known
I don't eat land animals mainly due to the nonsense of industrialized farming and what it does to animals and humans. Although, they don't seem to waste anything, which is good. Don't have anything against meat as a food source. Occasionally will eat shrimp and salmon- because I am weak!
I've known about gelatin in film since the beginning. I thought about it but it doesn't prevent me from using it. Like you mentioned you have to pick your spots. I would love to be vegan but I am too lazy. To be truly vegan in a modern society would take a monumental (for me!) effort. A lot municipalities use bone charcoal in the water purification process. Refining of sugar often uses animal products as do quite a few breweries. Just some examples! I am certainly not beholden to film in any way- I just like to use it, and to be honest, I don't use a lot of it- but that is besides the point.
As an off topic aside: plants don't have sentience or anything regarding consciousness. To equate harvesting crops with killing animals is ridiculous and is also a self defeating argument.
Complete protein from plant sources is ridiculously easy. Combine whole grains with nuts, seeds, or legumes. Peanut butter sandwich on whole wheat equals perfect protein. Easy, huh? Iron and B12 is not much more difficult.
At the very end: "The cut worms forgives the plough"
I've known about gelatin in film since the beginning. I thought about it but it doesn't prevent me from using it. Like you mentioned you have to pick your spots. I would love to be vegan but I am too lazy. To be truly vegan in a modern society would take a monumental (for me!) effort. A lot municipalities use bone charcoal in the water purification process. Refining of sugar often uses animal products as do quite a few breweries. Just some examples! I am certainly not beholden to film in any way- I just like to use it, and to be honest, I don't use a lot of it- but that is besides the point.
As an off topic aside: plants don't have sentience or anything regarding consciousness. To equate harvesting crops with killing animals is ridiculous and is also a self defeating argument.
Complete protein from plant sources is ridiculously easy. Combine whole grains with nuts, seeds, or legumes. Peanut butter sandwich on whole wheat equals perfect protein. Easy, huh? Iron and B12 is not much more difficult.
At the very end: "The cut worms forgives the plough"
wayneb
Established
I'm a real vegetarian (I haven't had a meat-based meal in over 20 years), I don't eat fish, or "cheat" on holidays. But I'm not a vegan - I have leather shoes. And I shoot film.
Obviously, there's a lot of moral calculus you can do about to what extent purchasing by-products of the meat industry supports it. I don't spend much time discussing or arguing about why I'm vegetarian, or why I'm not a vegan. In very small and subtle doses I do try to share benefits of a lifestyle choice by engaging in the positives (I eat great food, I'm thankfully very healthy, the diet is better for the environment, etc).
Obviously, there's a lot of moral calculus you can do about to what extent purchasing by-products of the meat industry supports it. I don't spend much time discussing or arguing about why I'm vegetarian, or why I'm not a vegan. In very small and subtle doses I do try to share benefits of a lifestyle choice by engaging in the positives (I eat great food, I'm thankfully very healthy, the diet is better for the environment, etc).
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Most the meat I consume is from local farmers who are quite low impact, the industrial farming aspect doesn't apply to all meat. Pastured animals hereabouts are quite 'clean' and likely have a far smaller carbon footprint than an equal volume of supermarket broccoli or tomatoes. As to gelatin in film I've never given it a second thought.
Steve M.
Veteran
People always come up w/ rationalizations.
Yes, a plant is a living thing, but it isn't sentient. Not on a level we can understand anyway. So, knowing that something has to die in order for us to live, better to kill that which is least sentient. It's really not complicated at all.
Yes, a plant is a living thing, but it isn't sentient. Not on a level we can understand anyway. So, knowing that something has to die in order for us to live, better to kill that which is least sentient. It's really not complicated at all.
bob338
Well-known
I'm a very strict vegetarian, and have been for years, and I have no problem with the gelatin in film.
We all pick our battles, I guess.
We all pick our battles, I guess.
f6andBthere
Well-known
Paul T.
Veteran
Thanks for the post - I didn't know gelaitn was used in film either, iuntil the recent thread on Kodak's gelatin business.
I have to disagree. I was vegetarian for many years, and have a fair few vegan friends. THey are adult enough not to expect others to feel guilty about their own choices; and their lifestyle imposes less stress on the planet. Don't see why it's an excess.
As for Gelatin, for me it's like wearing leather, back when I was a vegetarian - it was a by-product, isn''t part of the industrialisation of meat production, lasts longer and is therefore probably less damaging to the planet than petrochemicals.
That was my rationale - or excuse. Because I couldn't do without it, slo wasn't worth stressing. Same with film.
I have to disagree. I was vegetarian for many years, and have a fair few vegan friends. THey are adult enough not to expect others to feel guilty about their own choices; and their lifestyle imposes less stress on the planet. Don't see why it's an excess.
As for Gelatin, for me it's like wearing leather, back when I was a vegetarian - it was a by-product, isn''t part of the industrialisation of meat production, lasts longer and is therefore probably less damaging to the planet than petrochemicals.
That was my rationale - or excuse. Because I couldn't do without it, slo wasn't worth stressing. Same with film.