Film Ferrania: Most delayed Kickstarter Product EVER? (2014-19)

[brbo]

I was a backer although I didn't think they would deliver. No one else will ever even think about trying what they actually tried to do.

Seriously, take the money Ferrania got with Kickstarter to Fuji/Kodak and ask them to do bring back Astia/Plus-X and they'd laugh you off even though they still have a running film production. For that kind of money I bet they won't even bother to make up a single excuse (ok, Kodak might consider it if the amount of money was much higher)...

 

[rf_smitten]

It's an interesting fact that the "old" Ferrania produced colour slide film until 2010, sold under the Agfaphoto label in Europe. That was only 10 years ago - but what happened since then? If you keep that in mind, it's hard to understand why it should be some kind of rocket science to establish production again. In my understanding, they have lost their original vision completely, while trying to preserve the original factory building and machine park. If they had concentrated more on their final product and searched help from business experts, and maybe given up the idea to preserve the old structures, the project could have been a success.

I still hope the best for them, but let's be honest: They will be another "boutique" producer of black and white films among some others, if they can make the step out of experimental status. But definitely not the saviour of analogue colour film.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

Hmmm... yes, it was very ambitious. Still, it's very obvious now that they either vastly under-estimated (and I mean a MASSIVE amount of under-estimating) what it would take to get things up and running, or simply over-represented their abilities by a huge amount. Their original pitch was for 4 different formats of color reversal film by April 2015, and nearly 4 years later, they haven't even made a market-ready batch of quality 35mm (the only format they are focused on right now) black & white negative film.

There are lots of things that can be picked apart about what they've been doing the last 5 years, but... up to December of 2018 they still seemed like they were trying!

Since then, it's not like this is the 1st time they've gone silent for extended lengths of time... they've done this before... only to come back with more reasons why things got delayed. Maybe this time it will be different???

If your interest in actually understanding the timeline of the Ferrania project is sincere, you would do well to read the two longest threads on the subject over at photrio.com, alias APUG, as it seems you haven’t. There are detailed descriptions from factory representation of exactly what has transpired to delay production. The simple truth is that they did not over represent anything. “Underestimating what it would take to get things up and running” is a fair assessment, but only in hindsight, as no one could have predicted a couple of huge issues they had in regard to the existing infrastructure. The information is out there for anyone who cares to look, but most of it isn’t on the kickstarter page.

This isn’t a massively funded corporate behemoth like Fuji. It is, from all available evidence, essentially a passion project by handful of “believers” who have patiently persevered in the face of setbacks, massive and niggling, in an effort give the film world something they believe in. It would be nice if the armchair industrialists would cut them some slack, but that would be countercultural.

The future is unknown, but I personally wouldn’t be surprised if they eventually produce some color transparency film, but guessing it won’t be anytime soon. Personally, sitting over here in the cheap seats, I’m grateful for their efforts, and P30 (I scan), and wish them well.

 

[jawarden]

The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real problem if you are wet printing. If you scan you can push it around more.

Marty

Stated another, equally valid way, "The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real opportunity if you are wet printing."

I'm hoping for the best outcome with Ferrania and wish them well. I especially want to play with 120 format P30 - I have a Brownie from the turn of the century and it would be good creative fun to pair that low contrast lens with high contrast P30 and see what happens in the darkroom.

 

[Moto-Uno]

This is to all the backers that no longer shoot film .... hows about you simply mail it to me when it finally comes thru 🙂 , Peter

 

[PRJ]

I am quite impressed by the tenaciousness of the people behind Ferrania. I wasn't a kickstarter supporter, but when they finally get their film out I'll get some.

 

[sepiareverb]

Stated another, equally valid way, "The complete lack of anything approaching a normal density curve from P30 is a real opportunity if you are wet printing."

I'm hoping for the best outcome with Ferrania and wish them well. I especially want to play with 120 format P30 - I have a Brownie from the turn of the century and it would be good creative fun to pair that low contrast lens with high contrast P30 and see what happens in the darkroom.

Contrasty prints will happen. I shot P30 with ancient uncoated lenses and developed both film and paper in low contrast developers. Grade 00 prints still looked like grade 4, even shooting in extremely flat light. Though better than some of the Washi offerings, P30 is not really suited to anything but high contrast wet prints unless one wants to shoot it at iso 6 and pull the heck out of it.

 

[ruby.monkey]

This is to all the backers that no longer shoot film .... hows about you simply mail it to me when it finally comes thru 🙂 , Peter

Either I'll make an exception just to use this film, or I'll have died of old age and my kids will have sold it.

 

[Out to Lunch]

If genuine capitalists have decided not to back a product, who am I to disagree with them.

 

[Ted Striker]

Ferrania are in way over their head and have been for years now. I've long since given up hope that they will ever produce color film again.

 

[retinax]

I am quite impressed by the tenaciousness of the people behind Ferrania. I wasn't a kickstarter supporter, but when they finally get their film out I'll get some.

Same.
It sucks for the backers, but would perhaps be better for ferrania to drop the colour plans, now that Kodak makes Ektachrome again the chances that oit will be profitable are diminished.

 

[jawarden]

Contrasty prints will happen. I shot P30 with ancient uncoated lenses and developed both film and paper in low contrast developers. Grade 00 prints still looked like grade 4, even shooting in extremely flat light. Though better than some of the Washi offerings, P30 is not really suited to anything but high contrast wet prints unless one wants to shoot it at iso 6 and pull the heck out of it.

Your results and mine couldn't be farther apart. I only exposed three rolls and found usable negatives at iso50. Who shoots at iso 6??

Here are three iPhone snaps of working prints that I never did anything with. They were made with modern Zeiss contrasty glass. They all would require dodging and burning, etc but I never took the prints farther than this stage. One of them is the dreaded P30 exposed at iso 50 with normal development (I just followed Ferrania's instructions for Ilfosol 3). I printed with a #2 filter on RC warm tone from Ilford, following their instructions for using their Multigrade developer.

In my experience most folks can't tell what film was used for various prints unless it's very obvious like with a super grainy Delta3200 or whatever.

 

[Dralowid]

As I read this thread I spot a roll of reversal panchromatic Ferrania on my shelf. £1.5s.8d. expired April '1969.

50 years ago...

Last time I read their website it seemed as if that they had fallen headlong into a 'Health and Safety' black hole. Bet that wouldn't have been a problem fifty years ago.

Bring back Cow Gum, spray mount and Calor gas fires in a freezing studio under the Heathrow flightpath full of cigarette smoke.

Surprisingly I am still alive.

 

[anu L ogy]

I backed their original campaign. I got a cool postcard in the mail that was in italian, and it got water damaged, but the color fade almost ended up looking cooler. I'm not mad in the least, but could be understanding if someone pledged more than like 10 bucks (on what was a pretty risky project from the start). I still get a chuckle when I get the updates from them, haha.

 

[Freakscene]

Your results and mine couldn't be farther apart. I only exposed three rolls and found usable negatives at iso50. Who shoots at iso 6??

Here are three iPhone snaps of working prints that I never did anything with. They were made with modern Zeiss contrasty glass. They all would require dodging and burning, etc but I never took the prints farther than this stage. One of them is the dreaded P30 exposed at iso 50 with normal development (I just followed Ferrania's instructions for Ilfosol 3). I printed with a #2 filter on RC warm tone from Ilford, following their instructions for using their Multigrade developer.

In my experience most folks can't tell what film was used for various prints unless it's very obvious like with a super grainy Delta3200 or whatever.

All these look to me like the wet print equivalent of a starting point for a scan - too flat both in the shadows and highlights.

The problem with P40 is flexibility. If you want to make photos that look however the materials make them turn out, fine. You can make images that look like those you posted with film with a normal curve by modifying the exposure and development, and printing them this way. But you can't make photos taken with P40 have normal shadow and highlight values and contrast without an extraordinary amount of work, so you can't match existing work or tailor it to match the contrast curves of different families of paper.

Marty

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I backed their original campaign. I got a cool postcard in the mail that was in italian, and it got water damaged, but the color fade almost ended up looking cooler. I'm not mad in the least, but could be understanding if someone pledged more than like 10 bucks (on what was a pretty risky project from the start). I still get a chuckle when I get the updates from them, haha.

As they said in the most recent updates, they're working on allowing backers to exchange their pledge rewards for something else. If that nets me a few more rolls of P30, they get no grief from me 😀

 

[jawarden]

All these look to me like the wet print equivalent of a starting point for a scan - too flat both in the shadows and highlights.

That's effectively what they are as I said in my post, a starting point that was taken no further, which I often do to get something bigger than a contact print to review but without too much labor or paper. There are no blacks, whites, dodging or burning.

The problem with P40 is flexibility. If you want to make photos that look however the materials make them turn out, fine. You can make images that look like those you posted with film with a normal curve by modifying the exposure and development, and printing them this way. But you can't make photos taken with P40 have normal shadow and highlight values and contrast without an extraordinary amount of work, so you can't match existing work or tailor it to match the contrast curves of different families of paper.

I shared those images because I keep reading comments that are not what I'm seeing, i.e. printing at 00 and seeing grade 4 results, needing to shoot at iso6, getting nothing but blown highlights and blank shadows, etc. A newcomer to this forum could be forgiven for expecting this film to produce nothing but blacks and whites. That's not the case on the film or on the paper.

Your points about matching past work and various papers is taken, and of course if this is a primary issue then this isn't the film that a concerned photographer should use, in the same way that you wouldn't use a Holga to match your past Leica work I suppose. If you need a flexible, normal film there are plenty in the marketplace already, but I don't think Ferrania is selling that unless I've missed claims from them. I think they're selling a particular look similar to their films from the 1960s. I'd need more than three rolls to explore that idea properly. If they make more I'll buy some and have fun with it.

 

[burninfilm]

It's interesting to hear about the other crazy long Kickstarters. The Star Citizen one sounds insane!!!

If your interest in actually understanding the timeline of the Ferrania project is sincere, you would do well to read the two longest threads on the subject over at photrio.com, alias APUG, as it seems you haven’t. There are detailed descriptions from factory representation of exactly what has transpired to delay production. The simple truth is that they did not over represent anything. “Underestimating what it would take to get things up and running” is a fair assessment, but only in hindsight, as no one could have predicted a couple of huge issues they had in regard to the existing infrastructure. The information is out there for anyone who cares to look, but most of it isn’t on the kickstarter page.

I have already read those threads. Guess I just got something different out of them. I've been reading them since they first started. I'm well aware of all of the issues they cite as reasons for the delays. If you really read through them, you start to see some inconsistencies. There is absolutely a 0% chance they would have ever delivered on their 1st schedule even if they had been able to make that 1st batch of color reversal film. Maybe they simply weren't aware of exactly how much work the LRF needed.

It's somewhat odd that they keep trying to get backers to take a 1:1 swap of color reversal film awards for P30. The value of a roll of B&W film and color reversal E6 film is very different. Kodak's pricing for Ektachrome 100 is about $14 a roll, while TMAX 100 is about $6 a roll. I assume Ferrania will have a similar pricing range if they ever get their color reversal film on the market. From that viewpoint, a 2:1 swap would be more appropriate. I'm really curious to see what their idea of a "credit" for backers will be in their online store.

I also don't like the statement from Film Ferrania that the money from the Kickstarter was ONLY for the machinery. That isn't true. It was also to produce that first batch of color reversal film:

"The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success."

Ferrania themselves seem to indicate that the funds were meant to fund that first film batch. Not that it matters much, but just something to keep in mind when people say what the Kickstarter money was intended for. I mean seriously... if the money was meant for machinery, they could have just tried a GoFundMe campaign...

I'd love to see them succeed, especially if someday they can bring back some dead film formats like 126 and 127. But when they say "the factory is ours" and that basically all of their problems have been solved and that they'll be in continuous production by Fall 2018........

It just makes me wonder, due to their past history, what is the problem now? How long can you keep your Kickstarter promise going?

 

[fdarnell]

"Go easy, Leonard!"

Think about the "impossible Project". After ten years, I can now go to Target, get a Polaroid branded camera, on sale for a black body no less, some color and black and white film in SX-70 format. All on the shelf, no special order. Yes, it's pricy, but it EXISTS!

These projects take time.

And yes, I'm getting that camera for one simple reason: I can.

 

[jsrockit]

Think about the "impossible Project". After ten years, I can now go to Target, get a Polaroid branded camera, on sale for a black body no less, some color and black and white film in SX-70 format.

Really? ...