Film or digital

[Andy K]

Ok here is my workflow:

1) If shot with film I scan it immediately.
2) Then I have a database of images managed by Imach, every new picture is added to the database, the files themselves are kept on an external HD, so should my computer crash I don't have problems getting at the images.
3) as soon as the picture is in the database, and indexed, a directory containing all my images in yet another external HD is syncronized (it takes only seconds) to gether with the database files (to back up the indexing as well)
4) Only at this point the image is deleted from the memory card.

The whole back-up process takes a couple of minutes

So as soon as I get back to my PC all my images are stored in two separate external drives. On top of that a set of DVDs with all the images is produced on a by-monthly basis and sent off site for storage (to my mother in law), so even a fire can't destroy all my pictures, can anyone say the same for negatives?

As soon as an external drive becomes too small, it is replaced by a bigger one (my guess is an HD upgrade every 2 years)

I can suffer a catastrophic failure of one external drive without losing any image (and a catastrophic failure is extremely unlikely since there are data-recovery companies that can recover 99% of the data from HD that have been trough a fire)
I can suffer a catastrophic failure of two HD (if someone wants to try and calculate the probablility of it be my guest, but it is going to be less than 1/1000000000) losing only 2 months of family memories at most.

Can your negatives go trough a fire and survive?

That sounds very expensive and slow. Yes my negs will survive a fire. I keep them in a fireproof file storage box, similar to this.

 

[Andy K]

Andy,

Back to the analogue darkroom argument. Please describe your darkroom and its ventilation system. Is it in a spare room, closet, bathroom etc? Do you have a fan installed?

R.J.

I convert my kitchen, it takes about 5 minutes to set up. Here's a pic. I use a Meopta Opemus 6 Color enlarger for both 35mm and mf. Mostly I use Ilford paper (usually MGIV RC Pearl) and chemicals (Ilford Multigrade) The enlarger is at the far end, I work from the enlarger (the dry end) along the worktop with the wet area at the nearside by the sink. The kitchen has an extractor fan but I don't use it, there is no need.

 

[Kin Lau]

I suggest you Google Mitchell and Kenyon.

Not useful. If you have something to say, quote the appropriate page.

It is starting to sound the pnet, but you won't like who I think resembles that remark the most.

 

[Socke]

Hm, they state that the box will withstand 30 minutes of 840°C. They don't state how hot it will be inside. My insurance demands 60 minutes at 945°C with an inside temerature rise not above 30°C.
That safe weighs roughly half a metric ton and is some 30cm thick.
I wouldn't bet on the negs in the cheap steal box after 30 minutes in a fire.

And another thing, is the box waterproof?

I live in a place at sealevel, it has been flooded twice in the last 40 years. Damn, I lost my fathers playboy collection from 1963 to 68 :-(

 

[Bertram2]

You accuse me of 'snobbishness' and Bertram uses it as an excuse to attack APUG.
.

Don't use the word "attack" so thoughtlessly please ! And BTW if I want to attack anybody I don't need any excuses for doing so, believe me !I just do it.

Some spicy irony should be allowed about such a " nice photo" POV concerning color photos in general, and I did not mean the whole APUG bunch, only a certain subgroup to which you seem to belong tho as I see.

bertram

 

[Andy K]

Hm, they state that the box will withstand 30 minutes of 840°C. They don't state how hot it will be inside. My insurance demands 60 minutes at 945°C with an inside temerature rise not above 30°C.
That safe weighs roughly half a metric ton and is some 30cm thick.
I wouldn't bet on the negs in the cheap steal box after 30 minutes in a fire.

And another thing, is the box waterproof?

I live in a place at sealevel, it has been flooded twice in the last 40 years. Damn, I lost my fathers playboy collection from 1963 to 68 :-(

I said the box I use is similar to that one, not that actual box.

 

[RJBender]

...Perhaps you have never done any of your own processing, black and white chemicals are pretty much odourless unless you stick your nose right in the bottles...

I quit 9 years ago and I still remember the odors. 10 air changes per hour is recommended for a darkroom.

There are many hazards associated with photographic materials. It is important that persons involved with photo processing, be aware of these hazards and that every effort is made to minimize the effects of these chemicals on the health of the community. For example, many photographic processes produce toxic gases. These gases may be released slowly from baths or stored chemicals as they age.

http://www.ehs.ufl.edu/HMM/photo.htm

R.J.

 

[Andy K]

Not useful. If you have something to say, quote the appropriate page.

It is starting to sound the pnet, but you won't like who I think resembles that remark the most.

My apologies, I didn't realise Mitchell and Kenyon was so difficult to type into the search bar.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/nfa/mitchell_and_kenyon/index.php

http://www.shef.ac.uk/nfa/mitchell_and_kenyon/showmen.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4172449.stm

 

[Andy K]

I quit 9 years ago and I still remember the odors. 10 air changes per hour is recommended for a darkroom.



http://www.ehs.ufl.edu/HMM/photo.htm

R.J.

That must explain why I'm dead then.

 

[Andy K]

And another thing, is the box waterproof?

I live in a place at sealevel, it has been flooded twice in the last 40 years. Damn, I lost my fathers playboy collection from 1963 to 68 :-(

No need. Negatives survive water very well. Some of my fathers negs (Ilford FP3) were stored still rolled in their original film canisters. To straighten them so they could be used again I washed them and hung them to dry. It did not harm them at all.

 

[RJBender]

That must explain why I'm dead then.

Ok, ignore the safety precautions. It's your life. 🙁

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

The kitchen has an extractor fan but I don't use it, there is no need.

Famous last words? Please take the safety precautions seriously, Andy.

R.J.

 

[Andy K]

Famous last words? Please take the safety precautions seriously, Andy.

R.J.

There are no noxious fumes given off by the chemicals in my DR. If they were giving off dangerous fumes there would be a 'Use in a well ventilated area' warning on the chemical containers. The only precaution necessary is protective gloves (the surgical type) because I am not in there for days on end. The most time I spend in there is about an hour at a time because I stop for frequent cups of tea.

 

[fgianni]

That sounds very expensive and slow. Yes my negs will survive a fire. I keep them in a fireproof file storage box, similar to this.

Expensive: A bit but not horribly so, as I said about 1 new external HD every 2 years, the cost is close to $100 a year and will probably come down in the next years, plus the initial setup of 2 external HDS ($400) also the bigger HD is used to regularly back up my system as well

Slow: It depends on how many new images you have, for 100 images in RAW format it takes a couple of minutes to back up. Then about 30 min of work every 2 months for the DVD backups.

The fireproof storage box assumes that the fire is put out within 30 minutes (or 60 for the more expensive ones), that might not always be the case, I think that having a copy off site is a safer option.

 

[RJBender]

let's try again

film or digital

Don't tell me you used a Kodak DX6490. :bang:

90mm Elmar, Fuji Superia 400 with sharpening applied 2 or 3 times??? 😕

LOL

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

There are no noxious fumes given off by the chemicals in my DR. If they were giving off dangerous fumes there would be a 'Use in a well ventilated area' warning on the chemical containers. The only precaution necessary is protective gloves (the surgical type) because I am not in there for days on end. The most time I spend in there is about an hour at a time because I stop for frequent cups of tea.

Use in a well ventilated area

is usually found on containers of flammable liquids.

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

Like the ink used to write the dead sea rolls? I have yet to see a 2000 year old silver print!

Socke,

Isn't it possible to beam a radio signal of a digital image file into space? 😀

R.J.

 

[Andy K]

is usually found on containers of flammable liquids.

R.J.

It is also found on those which give off dangerous fumes.

 

[Bertram2]

Hm, they state that the box will withstand 30 minutes of 840°C. They don't state how hot it will be inside. My insurance demands 60 minutes at 945°C with an inside temerature rise not above 30°C.
That safe weighs roughly half a metric ton and is some 30cm thick.
I wouldn't bet on the negs in the cheap steal box after 30 minutes in a fire.

And another thing, is the box waterproof?

I live in a place at sealevel, it has been flooded twice in the last 40 years. Damn, I lost my fathers playboy collection from 1963 to 68 :-(

A burning house easily can reach 1000 degrees, depends on materials and what is IN the house and what had caused the fire.
If the box is somehow "similar" to what AndyK pointed out the negs will die within 10 minutes in a burning room, probably the only place with a real chance to survive is the basement , but behind a steel door.
And a flood doesn't come usually with drinking water but with polluted brackish water in Bremen, right ? only a detaill, but I found it worth to mention 😀

Some thought about safety:
I worked in a big computercenter for many years, a service company owned by and working for 800 banks in Germany and some years I spent also in the DMS business.
I learned one decisive thing there: All kind of safety is nothing if you have no redundancy , i.e duplicates. In fact there were two identic computercenters, in a distance of some miles, completely mirrored and each able to work 6 weeks underwater completely autark, at least this was the joke for the Hosting clients.

Companies with global DMS systems connected by a WLAN and can build up a geographically wide spread multiple redundancy which grants a degree of document security which one could not imagine in the pre-digital age.

The many many thousands of microfiches which nontheless are still made today in the banking biz because of their longevity are often stored with duplicates too btw exactly because of this reason.

I hate it to admit (aaarrghh 😉 ) but at this point digital for a private person is undoubtedly safer than film as long as you haven't got neg duplicates too , and no private person does anything like that. I mean it is no real prob to update 3 HDs in a RAID system from time to time and store them at different places.

I stick with film anyway, the fun of the ride is important, not how safe it is 😀

bertram

 

[Andy K]

Hey Bertram, are you and Socke married or what? It seems if Socke said the moon was made of cheese you would agree and say you'd tasted it. 🙄 Every time Socke posts, shortly after there you are like a good little puppy, 'Yes Socke, yes Socke, yes Socke.'