Film spacing problem of my Kiev

[kl122002]

Just recieved the developed film, I find the spacing between each frame is not equal. The first 10 have a larger space approx 4mm, but the others are getting closer, spaced by a line only.
So, which spacing is normal, 4mm or a line?

PS. Shutter is fixed now. Thank you very much. I cleaned and re-oiled the shutter. I added some valve oil to clockwork system. It becomes quieter and easier to wind. The straps are band new. I don't think I need to change it now. I originally have a CD with scanned photo, but my computer can not read it. :bang:

 

[ruben]

Hi Kevin,

Given that it is a start, you can congratulate your luck that you do not have light leaks.

As for the frame spacing, MEANWHILE, I would let it as it is, insofar you do not have overlapping. The reason is that I would first of all check if this spacing phenomena is steady along use and time.

The day you have overlapping it will the "D" day.

As for the gears I would also not touch with oil, and wait for some five rolls more, to see if the camera softens with use or not.

The oil you found leaking, is no major problem, provided you leave your camera to rest erected over its natural base, and not "in bed". Just put some fabric to absorb the oil, and at some point it will end leaking.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[brachal]

Uneven frame spacing is common with Kievs. It appears to be inherent in the design. Two tricks I use that may help ...
1. Advance the film in two smooth motions, not several smaller twists. As you advance the film, it should start easy and then get a little tighter for the second half of the advance ... one twist gets you to the tighter spot (perhaps where the shutter is cocked?) and then a second twist to home.
2. Get a Kiev film casette and use it on the take-up side. I don't know why, but this seems to help.

 

[januaryman]

Ruben had a thread going on this a short time back as well, and his suggestion there was "backwiding" to keep the film taut in the film canister while you are shooting. I've tried it and it works. To an extent.

Also, I managed a first - failed to correctly disengage the shutter/film winder mechanism before trying to rewind. Result? Film torn off the cassette spool and loose in the camera. I pulled the film curls out by hand and promptly tossed it in the trash, chuckling at my stupidity and trying to remember if I had any potentially great shots that were lost forever. I eventually stopped torturing myself with this unanswerable question and reloaded the damn thing. (shrug)

 

[newspaperguy]

Another 'wind' solution

Another 'wind' solution

You might also try the the companion to the "Kiev Grip" ...that is the "Kiev Wind."

OK, so I just made that up... 🙄

Seriously, try gripping the camera in your left hand, turn the body to your right (like you were going to shoot your right armpit) then grasp the wind knob with your right hand and twist both hands out.

Result - you have just wound the film and cocked the shutter in one smooth motion... and done it almost as quickly as you would with a lever wind. 🙂

 

[Semushkin]

You might also try the the companion to the "Kiev Grip" ...that is the "Kiev Wind."

...
Seriously, try gripping the camera in your left hand, turn the body to your right (like you were going to shoot your right armpit) then grasp the wind knob with your right hand and twist both hands out.

Result - you have just wound the film and cocked the shutter in one smooth motion... and done it almost as quickly as you would with a lever wind. 🙂

HEY! HEY! This is the FED WIND! 😡


😉

 

[M. Valdemar]

99% of them have uneven spacing.

Just forget it.

 

[fidget]

You are so lucky. As said here, run with it as it is. (hope that the overlapping frames do not appear).
Enjoy it...

 

[Mark Wood]

In fact, the frame spacing issue has been discussed before (although I can't remember the actual thread). I've actually solved this problem completely on four Kievs and in each case, the problem was associated with the fork that drives the take-up spool. This is supposed to be designed to slip once the sprocket drive has advanced the film the correct distance but in all of the cameras that I've used, the screw that holds it onto the winder mechanism was far too tight and the take-up spool continued to pull the film through when the spool drive should have been slipping.
If you remove the screw and then carefully take it away and remove the (numerous) washers, one at a time (make a note of the order in which they appear), you'll probably find that they're absolutely filthy which also exacerbates the problem. I've given them a thorough clean and put a very thin smear of sewing machine oil (and I mean VERY thin) on each with a cotton bud and then reassembled it. It's a bit of trial and error to get the screw tension right (my first attempt gave me constant 1 cm spacing and 18 pictures on a 24 exposure film!) and it actually only has to be tight enough to ensure that it doesn't unscrew when you rewind the film. You can keep a check on the frame spacing by running an old film through and marking the frame through the film gate with the shutter open on "B" and stop any adjustments as soon as you get it right. (Patience pays off here!!)
The result of this is that I have a 1969 Kiev 4 which has perfect spacing but (wait for it!!) remarkably, two 1975 and one 1974 4a models that do the same.
It's worth a try!

 

[skahde]

You might also try the the companion to the "Kiev Grip" ...that is the "Kiev Wind."

You recommended this to me in an eralier thread and I take the oppurtunity to say "thank you!". Works really well unless you have the camera on a short strap around your neck. 😀

Stefan

 

[ruben]

In fact, the frame spacing issue has been discussed before (although I can't remember the actual thread). I've actually solved this problem completely on four Kievs and in each case, the problem was associated with the fork that drives the take-up spool. This is supposed to be designed to slip once the sprocket drive has advanced the film the correct distance but in all of the cameras that I've used, the screw that holds it onto the winder mechanism was far too tight and the take-up spool continued to pull the film through when the spool drive should have been slipping.
If you remove the screw and then carefully take it away and remove the (numerous) washers, one at a time (make a note of the order in which they appear), you'll probably find that they're absolutely filthy which also exacerbates the problem. I've given them a thorough clean and put a very thin smear of sewing machine oil (and I mean VERY thin) on each with a cotton bud and then reassembled it. It's a bit of trial and error to get the screw tension right (my first attempt gave me constant 1 cm spacing and 18 pictures on a 24 exposure film!) and it actually only has to be tight enough to ensure that it doesn't unscrew when you rewind the film. You can keep a check on the frame spacing by running an old film through and marking the frame through the film gate with the shutter open on "B" and stop any adjustments as soon as you get it right. (Patience pays off here!!)
The result of this is that I have a 1969 Kiev 4 which has perfect spacing but (wait for it!!) remarkably, two 1975 and one 1974 4a models that do the same.
It's worth a try!

Hi Mark,
I very much agree with you except for one highly important detail. Between the screw and the fork there is a specific ring with a rectangular hole, ensuring that the fork may move in both directions without disengaging the screw.

Since when screwing the fork screw we apply a measurable amount of force, it becomes somewhat hard to know that the special ring with its rectangular hole shape has engaged the screw at the right place. Although with some tryials anybody can make it.

Once this ring is in proper place, then the whole issue of frame spacing becomes a trial and error exercise about the measure of tension the screw should have.

No need to say everything should be clean, lubricated, including the re-wind knob, that MUST turn as much as possible as a normal re-wind knob we know from Western and Japanese cameras.


But let's say to Kevin, who is just starting, that all these is quite ahead. At his stage, he is in a general assesment of his Kiev, and the level of frame spacing is quite good and possible to live with.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Spyderman]

We should make a sticky for Kiev newbies...

 

[Mark Wood]

Hi Ruben,

Many thanks for filling in the last detail about the ring with the rectangular hole, it certainly explains the trial and error issue with setting the screw tension.

Cheers, Mark

 

[ruben]

We should make a sticky for Kiev newbies...

I nominate you as Chief of the Project. :bang:

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

You are so lucky. As said here, run with it as it is. (hope that the overlapping frames do not appear).
Enjoy it...

It is quite a specific open question related to the specific camera Kevin has.

Frame spacing may stay as it is now,

it may worsen soon

or it even may improve.

Kevin will need some patience to run some rolls and see. Meanwhile he can disassemble and clean and lubricate the rewind knob, and as one folk mentioned here, correct loading of the camera will always help a bit.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[kl122002]

I agree with Ondrej, we should make a sticky for the Kiev newbies, like me.

It does have overlapping, especially the last 3 shots. I spent an afternoon to count the film with 36 exposures. I find it should be 8 'teeth' to move a old frame to new frame. When I check my first developed film, it appears that some of them use 9 'teeth' at the beginning.

Can I install the film oppositely? Install the film on the take up side and 're-wind' the film before taking?

 

[ruben]

.............Can I install the film oppositely? Install the film on the take up side and 're-wind' the film before taking?

Hi Kevin,

Definitely not.

You sound to be somewhat unpatient to open your Kiev. Basically what your Kiev needs is a CLA to start with.

For this, following the KSS, you will need to separate the whole shutter compound, clean all the gears with the help of thiner or alcohol, to very fine detail, making all of it absolutely clean, using a brush that you can cut its hair short in order to strengthen it, and grease with a thin layer. A THIN layer, unless your Kiev is a 4AM/M, which will require a bit more of grease.

All these operations should be performed with the shutter cocked at 1/250.

Use a parts box enabling you to follow the path of re-assemble. Clean everything, specially all screws and spacers.

Be carefully when disassembling, since there are many hidden spacers everywhere.

Buy two sets of cheap screwdrivers. One for use as it is, the other to file the screwdrivers to the needs of specific screws.

And the most important of all. Kiev disassemble and re-assemble will test your patience time and again. Whenever you get ennervated, quite, and continue later. Most of the work is in the unscrewing screws and rescrewing.

Before re-assemble of the shutter compound to the front part, check the rangefinder accuracy for the highest standard you can, and adjust if necessary.

As part of the process you may dis-assemble the take up fork.

The second thing most important of all is that if you get a feeling you have jammed the camera - don't worry, you haven't. You may have to buy either a Kiev for parts, or another Kiev for use, but the jammed body with all its parts should be kept sleeping within a box and its parts within small nylon bags. The day will come you will put this camera back to work.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Spyderman]

I nominate you as Chief of the Project. :bang:

Cheers,
Ruben

Thanks comrade Ruben,

I take this as a honor and as a challenge.

There are plenty tutorials on the KSS, I'll just need to put together a FAQ and a recommended order of actions to perform a full CLA that will bring back the smoothness and quietness of Contax into our beloved Kievs.

 

[kl122002]

Hi Kevin,

Definitely not.

You sound to be somewhat unpatient to open your Kiev. Basically what your Kiev needs is a CLA to start with.

For this, following the KSS, you will need to separate the whole shutter compound, clean all the gears with the help of thiner or alcohol, to very fine detail, making all of it absolutely clean, using a brush that you can cut its hair short in order to strengthen it, and grease with a thin layer. A THIN layer, unless your Kiev is a 4AM/M, which will require a bit more of grease.

All these operations should be performed with the shutter cocked at 1/250.

Use a parts box enabling you to follow the path of re-assemble. Clean everything, specially all screws and spacers.

Be carefully when disassembling, since there are many hidden spacers everywhere.

Buy two sets of cheap screwdrivers. One for use as it is, the other to file the screwdrivers to the needs of specific screws.

And the most important of all. Kiev disassemble and re-assemble will test your patience time and again. Whenever you get ennervated, quite, and continue later. Most of the work is in the unscrewing screws and rescrewing.

Before re-assemble of the shutter compound to the front part, check the rangefinder accuracy for the highest standard you can, and adjust if necessary.

As part of the process you may dis-assemble the take up fork.

The second thing most important of all is that if you get a feeling you have jammed the camera - don't worry, you haven't. You may have to buy either a Kiev for parts, or another Kiev for use, but the jammed body with all its parts should be kept sleeping within a box and its parts within small nylon bags. The day will come you will put this camera back to work.

Cheers,
Ruben

I do have patient to open my Kiev, but my surroundings don't allows me to do it, my room-mate don't like to see me working on the camera.
I will try another roll and see whether it is getting worse. The flower exhibition Hog Hong Kong is going to begin in this month.
I think I shell do the CLA during the Easter holiday. It will be a better time for me to carry it out. My room-mate won't blame on me during that time. Thank you Ruben.
If the Kiev 4 can not not be repaired, I will go for a Contax ii/iii or Kiev 4a.

 

[ruben]

...........If the Kiev 4 can not not be repaired, I will go for a Contax ii/iii or Kiev 4a.

a) There is no unrepairable Kiev, but Kievs that we should put to sleep until the moment we learn more about its repair.

b) It is not the best path to heaven, to put yourself a time limit when CLA-ing a Kiev. Having a time limit when you do it first time, it is rather the highway to hell.

c) Do you really think that you will choose from eBay a $350 ~ $500 Contax and you will get one in perfect working order ?

I am very curious about it and if you choose this path I will like to follow up your story. There is a very well known "Russian Roulette", let's see if there is no "German Roulette". Go to the web page of Henry Scherer for further info about Contaxes being sold around. I have had a nice communication with him and don't get at all the feeling he is a charlatan. On the contrary.

Of course I am sure one or two folks will jump on me with their unrepeatable grandma stories about the perfect Contax they bought for $150. But for the realities give a good insight to our subforum Zeiss Contax, and start counting the complains.

d) Nevertheless, remember my advice of having a side camera for shooting, while you take your time to learn, fix, learn and fix again your Kiev. With a Contax, or a second more expensive Kiev, you will be deepening your troubles at a higher scale of costs.

If you currently have no shooting camera at all, pick a cheap Yashica gSn for some $50 and you will be done to great satisfaction. Messing with the black models is dangerous, because of the sellers waiting there for you.

Cheers,
Ruben