First RF Camera. What should I look at?

[SuitePhoto]

Hello,

First-off, I am a complete noob when it comes to film. I am one of those kids that started with digital cameras and has never had to wait for my pictures to be developed. I've been an in-house photographer for the last few years at an outdoor shoe company using pro-level Canon gear and would consider myself an intermediate photographer.

With all of that being said, lately I've been thinking about expanding my horizions and playing around with the 'old' way of doing things. After looking at my options and talking to a few friends that shoot film, a manual focus rangefinder camera seems to be what I'm looking for. I'd like something small with a 35 or 50mm lens that I could shoot portraits and general street photography. I think that shooting B&W with a manual focus camera will force me to focus on my composition skills.

So which brands/models should I be looking at? Leica would be great, but I'd really like to stick to a $600 or so price range for the set-up. Would it be a good idea for me to look into used cameras? Are there any reputable used dealers that I could talk to?

Thanks!

 

[captainslack]

Looks like you've got a budget, so I'd suggest clicking the CameraQuest link to the left and checking the Cosina Voigtlander Bessa line. They're new, use the same lenses the Leica's do, very well made, and damn fun to shoot.

Also, the camera article section there will give you background info on a ton of classic film cameras.

Welcome to the dark side!! 😀

 

[troym]

As much as I love RF photographer, I think that you should get a cheap SLR at first. It's an easier way to familiarize yourself with film photography. An old Pentax K-1000 and a "standard" 50/1.4 lens can be picked up for ridiculously low prices these days.

That said, if you're looking for a "trainer" rangefinder, I'd recommend a used Cosina/Voigtlander R2 and a used CV 35 Ultron or Color Skopar. That should come in under your $600 budget. An R2 and 35 Ultron were my first bits of RF gear, and they're an excellent all 'round kit.

 

[erikhaugsby]

You seem to imply that you want Leica, so if you are willing to sacrifice the M-mount of CV cameras, the verneable screwmnount Leicas will do a damn good job. From other people's experience, I'd suggest a IIIc; you might find something else that works just as well.

Remember, you can use LTM lenses on an M mount camera.

 

[JoeFriday]

hi Mike.. welcome to RFF!

not to say that troy is way off base, but I think 'starting' with an SLR is unnecessary.. you sound like you already know your way around an SLR, Mike.. and honestly, switching to film isn't so tricky that you need to take baby steps.. altho there certainly are some great deals on SLRs out there, so I wouldn't rule it out

but if you want to try something different, particularly getting into street photography, I think you'll be better off checking out the RF domain.. but just to play it safe, I'd really recommend starting out with something simple and cheap

thus, I'd highly recommend finding a good user Canonet QL17.. the fixed 40mm lens is very versatile, and the Canonet takes beautiful pictures.. prices will be in the $50-75 range, which will hardly take a dent out of your budget, and you'll be able to step up later, while still appreciating the quality of the Canon.. I have several Leicas and Contaxes, but I still grab my Canonet on a regular basis

plus, it's possibly the easiest loading camera I've ever owned, and has full manual capability, yet still has a meter and shutter-priority function

 

[SuitePhoto]

Thanks for the replies. You are correct, shoting with a Leica would be great... But the cheapest I've seen on ebay for what look like antiques in questionable condition was $1000...

I have been looking at the R2A and R3A - they seem pretty nice. Just so I know what I'm getting myself into, what am I loosing by buying in the $600 price range compared to a $3000 Leica? I'm sure the glass is better, and I'm sure the brand name counts for a lot, but is there something that I'm missing?

So CameraQuest.com is the place for Bessa stuff?

Also, what type of film do you guys recommend? And what Labs do you use? I plan on shooting mainly B&W, and I don't mind sending film off to be processed.

 

[SuitePhoto]

Thanks Joe, where would a be a good place to look for something like this? ebay? When buying a camera like this used (keeping in mind how old the thing is), what should I be looking for to make sure the camera still works?

hi Mike.. welcome to RFF!

not to say that troy is way off base, but I think 'starting' with an SLR is unnecessary.. you sound like you already know your way around an SLR, Mike.. and honestly, switching to film isn't so tricky that you need to take baby steps.. altho there certainly are some great deals on SLRs out there, so I wouldn't rule it out

but if you want to try something different, particularly getting into street photography, I think you'll be better off checking out the RF domain.. but just to play it safe, I'd really recommend starting out with something simple and cheap

thus, I'd highly recommend finding a good user Canonet QL17.. the fixed 40mm lens is very versatile, and the Canonet takes beautiful pictures.. prices will be in the $50-75 range, which will hardly take a dent out of your budget, and you'll be able to step up later, while still appreciating the quality of the Canon.. I have several Leicas and Contaxes, but I still grab my Canonet on a regular basis

plus, it's possibly the easiest loading camera I've ever owned, and has full manual capability, yet still has a meter and shutter-priority function

 

[rover]

There are lots of decent fixed lens RF cameras from the 1970s. You will find a bunch of info at Cameraquest (yes, that is the place for info, and a great place to shop too).

Here is a sample from the bay. For $65 you can get your feet wet and decide if you want to spend the rest of your stash to jump further into the RF pool.

http://cgi.ebay.com/G3-Canon-Canone...1QQihZ017QQcategoryZ30027QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[John]

There are two M4's in the classifieds now. One is working spot on and the other may need a clean, lube, adjust. If these don't suit you, keep checking these RFF classifieds. A lot of good equipment is changing hands here. I have bought 90% of my Leica gear here at the RFF classifieds. Many of the sellers allow an inspection period or return of merchandise in same condition if not satisfied. You pay the shipping. 🙂

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

I'd really like to stick to a $600 or so price range for the set-up. Would it be a good idea for me to look into used cameras? Are there any reputable used dealers that I could talk to?

Thanks!

Lots of options ...

1) Leica CL or CLE + 40mm summicron-c / 40mm rokkor-m / CV 40mm nokton or frankly any CV 35mm 28mm or 50mm lens

2) CV body + above lens

3) Leica M3 or M2 with any above lens (M2 for 35mm lens; M3 for 50mm lens)

those are the ones I can think of in your price range, good luck

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

If you want something less expensive, yet quite a capable system, look at a fixed lens Olympus 35SP. They run for $100 to $150, depending on condition and oddly enough color (black more expensive).

The lens on the Olympus 35SP is exceptional and the camera is very well built.

 

[JoeFriday]

I have been looking at the R2A and R3A - they seem pretty nice. Just so I know what I'm getting myself into, what am I loosing by buying in the $600 price range compared to a $3000 Leica? I'm sure the glass is better, and I'm sure the brand name counts for a lot, but is there something that I'm missing?

the glass is going to be the same whether you buy a Bessa or a Leica.. neither of them have a fixed lens, so that's up to whatever you choose, and both will work very well with any M-mount lens, or a LTM lens with a decent adapter

what you're getting with the Leica over the Bessa is mostly build quality and ergonomics.. there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Voigtlander line.. but many people prefer the feel and reliability of a Leica, even if it means paying 3 or 4 times as much

 

[planetjoe]

Decisions, Decisions.

Decisions, Decisions.

Mike:

There is a lot of good advice here, but what action you eventually take basically pivots on a simple decision: buying a fixed-lens or an interchangeable-lens RF. They both have their individual merits and shortcomings, but I'll add my personal prediction: whichever you begin with, you'll inevitably want one of the other kind.

Check here for Stephen Gandy's (i.e., CameraQuest's) take on the fixed-lens RFs, which he calls "compact 35s".

For example, I started in RF gear with the purchase of an Olympus SPn, in my opinion one of the finest fixed-lens RFs to come out, ever. Of course, I sold it to finance my foray into the Leica screwmount (LTM) system, where I ended up with a Canon P as well as a couple of former Soviet Union (FSU) RF bodies. The LTM system is a HUGE body of work, with lots of excellent glass at good prices. Recently, I finally got a Leica, the M4, which I found at a good price. It's a beautiful machine, and a great pleasure to shoot. Not all folks feel that way, believe it or not, even after buying one. In fact, I was afraid I wouldn't like it, but I do. M2s, by the way, seem to be hovering around $500-$700, even with a recent CLA. The M2 is, I believe, an excellent buy when serviced.

All of this prattle is simply to prepare you for what must be the silliest thing you'll hear today (but I think my fellow RFFers will grunt their agreement): Now, all I want to do is buy back my old fixed-lens SPn. Sometimes, all you want is everything.

So, start wherever your interest takes you, and see how you like it. Inexpensive cameras (most fixed-lens rigs) are cheap enough to buy several, and high-end cameras (i.e., Leicas) retain their resale value very well. It's quite hard to make a mistake.

Happy shooting.


Cheers,
--joe.

 

[Jason Sprenger]

A lot will depend on how much of the old way you want. For the real old way, used cameras really are what folks used back then.

$600 might get you a user type Leica M2 or a decent Leica screw mount. The experience of the latter may be to your taste or it might not. Either way, used cameras of such a vintage may require some TLC to get them running. (CLA, new covers, etc.)

For new, the $399 Cameraquest kit involving a Bessa R and a CV 35/2.5 Classic is a heck of a deal. Coming from screw mount Leicas, the finder of the Bessa R was a revelation and the CV 35/2.5 Classic is just a great lens. I like it much better than the Leitz Summaron 35/3.5 that it replaced.

If by $600, you're not including the lens. An R2a would give you auto-exposure and an M-mount. An M-mount is desirable should you want to use modern Leica lenses. The R2a also has a number construction improvements over an R, specifically, much better rewind crank, metal outer body coverings, racheted film advanced lever, etc.

The $3000 Leica camera gives you a longer baselength to the rangefinder (more accurate focusing), a more substantial camera, and the cachet of owning a Leica. You also get a camera that loads film like no other camera made today. Current M's have old style cloth shutters that are appreciated for their quieter operation.

A longer baselength is desirable with longer, faster lenses. Normal lenses and wides don't benefit as much from a longer baselength. With 35 and 50's, the baselength of a Bessa is no problem. For longer, a 90/4 is fine but an 85/2 might be tricky.

 

[anaanda]

hi Mike.. welcome to RFF!

not to say that troy is way off base, but I think 'starting' with an SLR is unnecessary.. you sound like you already know your way around an SLR, Mike.. and honestly, switching to film isn't so tricky that you need to take baby steps.. altho there certainly are some great deals on SLRs out there, so I wouldn't rule it out

but if you want to try something different, particularly getting into street photography, I think you'll be better off checking out the RF domain.. but just to play it safe, I'd really recommend starting out with something simple and cheap

thus, I'd highly recommend finding a good user Canonet QL17.. the fixed 40mm lens is very versatile, and the Canonet takes beautiful pictures.. prices will be in the $50-75 range, which will hardly take a dent out of your budget, and you'll be able to step up later, while still appreciating the quality of the Canon.. I have several Leicas and Contaxes, but I still grab my Canonet on a regular basis

plus, it's possibly the easiest loading camera I've ever owned, and has full manual capability, yet still has a meter and shutter-priority function

I second the Canonet Choice. Its small, great lens, Shutter priority, mechanical and quick loading. For one that's in excellent shpae the price I believe will be more than 50-75. I paid 175 for mine from camera quest. It was cla'd and in mint condition. If you are comfortable without a meter you could also get an M2M3 or M4 but they are heavier. All manual and mechanical. Prices range from $575 to $1000.

For lenses its all personal preference. You have to try out a few..VC makes excellent lenses for the price. Zeiss and Leica of course make excellent lenses but more expensive. I bought a Leica 50mm Rigid Summicron from 1957 for about $550. Great Value for the money plus it gives that 50's look.

 

[rover]

There are lots of decent fixed lens RF cameras from the 1970s. You will find a bunch of info at Cameraquest (yes, that is the place for info, and a great place to shop too).

Here is a sample from the bay. For $65 you can get your feet wet and decide if you want to spend the rest of your stash to jump further into the RF pool.

http://cgi.ebay.com/G3-Canon-Canone...1QQihZ017QQcategoryZ30027QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

OK, who bought the Canonet?

 

[kshapero]

As much as I love RF photographer, I think that you should get a cheap SLR at first. It's an easier way to familiarize yourself with film photography. An old Pentax K-1000 and a "standard" 50/1.4 lens can be picked up for ridiculously low prices these days.

That said, if you're looking for a "trainer" rangefinder, I'd recommend a used Cosina/Voigtlander R2 and a used CV 35 Ultron or Color Skopar. That should come in under your $600 budget. An R2 and 35 Ultron were my first bits of RF gear, and they're an excellent all 'round kit.

Agree, I cut my teeth on a 35 year old Nikon. Lots of fun but it weighed about a hundred pounds and was noisy. If you can swing it, I would go for an R2.

 

[troym]

hi Mike.. welcome to RFF!

not to say that troy is way off base, but I think 'starting' with an SLR is unnecessary.. you sound like you already know your way around an SLR, Mike.. and honestly, switching to film isn't so tricky that you need to take baby steps.. altho there certainly are some great deals on SLRs out there, so I wouldn't rule it out

but if you want to try something different, particularly getting into street photography, I think you'll be better off checking out the RF domain.. but just to play it safe, I'd really recommend starting out with something simple and cheap

thus, I'd highly recommend finding a good user Canonet QL17.. the fixed 40mm lens is very versatile, and the Canonet takes beautiful pictures.. prices will be in the $50-75 range, which will hardly take a dent out of your budget, and you'll be able to step up later, while still appreciating the quality of the Canon.. I have several Leicas and Contaxes, but I still grab my Canonet on a regular basis

plus, it's possibly the easiest loading camera I've ever owned, and has full manual capability, yet still has a meter and shutter-priority function

Actually, I think moving from DSLR to a film SLR is a nice first step because of the similarities. Moving directly to a rangefinder throws another variable to master into the mix. I would tackle one change at a time.

Besides learning the subtleties of film exposure, there are the "little things" with a film camera (loading film, checking to make sure the rewind crank is turning, etc.). There's actually a funny thread about shifting from digital to film. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=344456#post344456

My advice is to make all of that second nature first. It will then be easier to make using a rangefinder second nature.

 

[JoeFriday]

I understand what you're saying, troy.. but having come from a DSLR into the realm of film, I can say from experience that buying an SLR to use with film doesn't really offer much of an advantage over digital.. if a person did that, he would probably start questioning whether it was worth the effort to take the step backward into a less convenient method, especially if the photo-taking process and results were nearly identical to that with a DSLR

no, I still think that if someone is already entrenched in digital imaging with a DSLR, he would be better served to take a different approach in film.. and would have more fun with different tools

learning how to load film or set the proper exposure isn't any harder with an RF than an SLR (with a few exceptions).. so no point in buying SLR gear to cover something you can learn in days.. better to buy something that you will likely to use years from now

 

[kshapero]

As much as I love RF photographer, I think that you should get a cheap SLR at first. It's an easier way to familiarize yourself with film photography. An old Pentax K-1000 and a "standard" 50/1.4 lens can be picked up for ridiculously low prices these days.

That said, if you're looking for a "trainer" rangefinder, I'd recommend a used Cosina/Voigtlander R2 and a used CV 35 Ultron or Color Skopar. That should come in under your $600 budget. An R2 and 35 Ultron were my first bits of RF gear, and they're an excellent all 'round kit.

Agree, I cut my teeth on a 35 year old Nikon. Lots of fun but it weighed about a hundred pounds and was noisy. If you can swing it, I would go for an R2.