Folding TLRs, how many?

[oftheherd]

I have a Welta Perfekta. I like it for its picture taking, and for its uniqueness. I am also aware of the Superfekta, which I would really like to have. Both are marvels of engineering.

But there is currently an ebay listing for a Zeca folding TLR at http://www.ebay.com/itm/190790091605?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649.

I am familiar with the name as I have a 9x12 folding Zeca. But another folding TLR? Who knew?

 

[sevo]

I am aware of the Zeca - even though that is only the second I ever saw offered for sale and the first I've seen photographed in that much detail.

But looking at that picture, it does not seem to have a focus-coupled finder, so it is debatable whether it is a TLR or merely a brilliant finder scale focus camera.

So the two Weltas might still be all folding TLRs that exist. There were plenty of (large format) folding SLRs in the years between 1900 and 1939, by the way.

 

[oftheherd]

I wouldn't know, but from the write up and photos, it does seem to be a TLR. The top of the camera looks to be a fold up hood to cover a viewfinder, and there is a photo of a viewfinder with the hood opened. Apparently that was done to make it smaller when folded, unlike the Weltas which let the hood fold down. The write up also mentions the taking and viewing lens moving different amounts and the view screen being small, again to make it smaller folded. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Are you aware of any other folding TLR cameras? I am guessing not from your post mentioning the two Weltas being the only two folding TLRs after all.

 

[sevo]

The write up also mentions the taking and viewing lens moving different amounts

Could be, if the focusing mechanism is controlled by that knob on the top right - that might drive two independent parallelograms for the focusing and taking camera. Which would make it a even more complex construction than the Weltas.

 

[sevo]

Are you aware of any other folding TLR cameras?

Certainly no roll film metal cameras. There might perhaps have been some by non-German makers with very limited distribution or one-of-a-kind/DIY ones, but none seem to have made it into any collectors catalogues.

A bit further back they (or at least the twin lens non reflex camera) could even be said to be common - the prototype of the TLR as a whole were wooden twin lens large format cameras, with ground glass on top and plate holder below, a fairly widespread configuration for purposes where the delay for loading the plate was undesirable (e.g. if the subject was uncooperative, like in the case of child portraits or police mugshots). Following the flat bed principle common around the turn of the century, many of these sort of folded, but more in terms of being collapsible after shifting the lens board back.

 

[oftheherd]

Could be, if the focusing mechanism is controlled by that knob on the top right - that might drive two independent parallelograms for the focusing and taking camera. Which would make it a even more complex construction than the Weltas.

Two parallelograms would make sense. I was trying to imagine the clockwork set of gears/worms it might make to get it to work.

Certainly no roll film metal cameras. There might perhaps have been some by non-German makers with very limited distribution or one-of-a-kind/DIY ones, but none seem to have made it into any collectors catalogues.

A bit further back they (or at least the twin lens non reflex camera) could even be said to be common - the prototype of the TLR as a whole were wooden twin lens large format cameras, with ground glass on top and plate holder below, a fairly widespread configuration for purposes where the delay for loading the plate was undesirable (e.g. if the subject was uncooperative, like in the case of child portraits or police mugshots). Following the flat bed principle common around the turn of the century, many of these sort of folded, but more in terms of being collapsible after shifting the lens board back.

Yes, I have also never seen another. But then I hadn't seen this one until just now either. I believed the Perfekta and Superfekta the only ones. I am inclined to think any others would have been very limited production to remain hidden. I don't know, but I suspect the Weltas and the Zeca must have been short runs as I suspect they were too expensive in their day to be otherwise.

Have you ever seen production figures?

 

[Vobluda]

Welta Perfekta

 

[sevo]

Have you ever seen production figures?

I remember reading that it was only a three digit total of the Zeca due to some screw up outside the actual product. Superfektas seem to be almost as rare, but there must have been a much bigger amount of Perfektas made - they turn up on ebay at about the same frequency as some other cameras from the same period made in figures upward of of 10,000. Their uniqueness and quaintness may have accounted for an early collectability, so there could be more than average preserved of them, but it can't be all that rare if we have half a dozen or more owners within RFF alone...

 

[oftheherd]

I remember reading that it was only a three digit total of the Zeca due to some screw up outside the actual product. Superfektas seem to be almost as rare, but there must have been a much bigger amount of Perfektas made - they turn up on ebay at about the same frequency as some other cameras from the same period made in figures upward of of 10,000. Their uniqueness and quaintness may have accounted for an early collectability, so there could be more than average preserved of them, but it can't be all that rare if we have half a dozen or more owners within RFF alone...

Interesting. If there were only 3 digit figures of them made, that may explain the seller's price on the Zeca. I am not a collector, so I wouldn't pay that much for an antique camera. The Perfekta was a little above the limit for me, but GAS beat me out, and I do use it from time to time.

I hadn't thought about the fact that there are so many Perfekta owners here on RFF. Although I think RFF members are a cut above, your argument has a ring of truth to it. Still, Outside of the TLR thread that ran for a long time on the Pop Photo site 6 or 7 years ago, and a few mentions here on RFF, I don't see much mention of it. Of course that could be because most of them sit as reigning shelf queens. 😛

 

[oftheherd]

Welta Perfekta

We have been discussing the Perfekta and Superfekta as probably the only other two folding TLRs. I happen to have a Perfekta.

Do you have one or the other? If so, how do you like it as a photo taker?

EDIT: Having asked about Superfekta, I checked ebay and saw this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Welta-Super...e_Cameras&hash=item3cc800ca98#ht_13134wt_1006 for $2,200. I would be very surprised it this sold for that price. I don't recall for sure, but I don't think I have seen a Superfekta sell for over $!,000, and actually, I don't think I have seen one sell for over $700.

Listed as a similar item was my old friend the Zeca. 😀

 

[Ezzie]

There are several other folding TLR's, though mostly very rare. One of which is the Eder patent camera. It is howver very, very collectible and therefore expensive. Cool though. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Eder

 

[sevo]

There are several other folding TLR's, though mostly very rare. One of which is the Eder patent camera.

The Eder is twin lens, but no reflex. There are some more of that type, often in 9*12 format, but I am not aware of proper folding TLRs beyond the ones already talked about in this thread.

 

[clayne]

Sold for 2900$? That's ridiculously insane.

 

[Ezzie]

The Eder is twin lens, but no reflex. There are some more of that type, often in 9*12 format, but I am not aware of proper folding TLRs beyond the ones already talked about in this thread.

Does the Arco 35-1 count? Folding bed rangefinder with Arco view reflex finder? The finder is a second lens (not just a finder), and reflex (with WLF), and focus and parallax coupled.

 

[Lawrence Sheperd]

Here's a Welta Perfekta:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Wel...681?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item3a8305b5c9

 

[oftheherd]

Here's a Welta Perfekta:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Wel...681?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item3a8305b5c9

Thanks. I had seen that listing. In fact, I looked at several listings from that seller, mostly in disbelief at the asking prices. I wonder if he sells anything at the prices he lists. Maybe he hopes someone will come in after the listing ends and offer a lower price, but still above market value.