Fools, and Nazis, rush in...

[Socke]

- and a spontaneous outbreak of violence (liek in Ruanda).
Yes, the holocaust is different - in the thinking that was behind it, in its intention, and in the way it was done, and no, it can not be compared to other incidents of mass murder in history.

Roman

But it makes no difference to the people killed, does it?

Argh, can't we just be nice to each other for a change?

 

[RML]

Sorry for posting on topic but does anyone else find it odd that they always seem to use the butt ugly Zorki C or 2C when making up these fake Leica II cameras? .. If Leica made a camera with that boxy top cover I wouldn't want one. I've seen a few plain Leica II copies based on a Zorki 1 that look very passable unless you know your Leica's, the FED 1 based copies are easier to pick with the dished collar around the shutter button, but the Zorki C or 2C??

I've been wondering the same. But perhaps the Zorki-1s bring in enough money by themselves so they don't need to be hacked up to look like a Leica.

I think I'll stay out of the politics on this one, I spent a day at Auschwitz/Birkenau last month

A few more armchair historians should do the same. This whole it's-far-from-me-and-I can-talk-about-it-without-emotion makes me feel some should get some personal exposure to the remains and remnants of the Holocaust.

I've been to Bergen-Belsen and was sickened. I went to the Anne Frank museum and was sickened. Only a few weeks ago I went to the Jewish Historical Museum to see the Yevgeny Khaldey exhibition and happened to buy a book on 100 years Jewish history, and the part on WW2 sickened me. Just a month ago I saw a photo exhibition in FOAM about the ghetto in Lotz (sp?) and was sickened (my little girl was with me and asked me things I couldn't answer without causing her nightmares. I had to step out of the room to avoid further questions. At 7 she's for now a little too young to be exposed to these things).

I'll never get used to the images, the wantonness and deliberateness that went into the Holocaust. Ruanda, Cambodia et al are just as sickening but I fear the Holocaust is still no 1 on the list of disgusting mass murders, in scale, in intend, in efficency and in quantity. And it still serves for some as an example to follow, which is to me unimaginable. In stead of philosophizing about the Holocaust one should just once be exposed to the photos, the sounds, the films, the scenes for a few hours (like in a museum). It'll grip you by the heart and the gut and you'll soon come away with a much deeper understanding of what the Holocaust really was. Enjoy the nightmares. I had them.

 

[RML]

You are forgetting something Roman. History is written by the winners.
As George Orwell wrote in Nineteen Eighty-Four: 'He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.'

History is initially written by the winners. Then history catches up with them and people start to ask questions. That's when the tale gets set straight, slowly but surely. Roman is quite up to date with his history, especially concerning the roll of the Wehrmacht. Philosophizing about these things is all good and nice but useless without being knowledgeable about the latest developments and insights. And perhaps some personal experience won't do any harm either.

 

[darkkavenger]

Just let me state that if I would ever have the chance, one chance over millions, to find a real camera from WWII germany, I would thoroughly check it before purchasing it. Military items are usually very sober in design, not gold or copper looking with tons of symbols... I've seen a website (the cool guys at CameraQuest) presenting a ww2 exakta 66 from kriegsmarine : http://www.cameraquest.com/ek66kr.htm

See the simplicity of the markings ?
Who needs a modified Russian RF made into a fake Leica ... the originals are such cuties!

 

[darkkavenger]

By the way, that "kriegsmarine leica" look is so appalling. Poor Zorki *shakes head*

 

[Socke]

RML, your right, it is sickening. And I'll never understand how people can do this to others.

After I spent a day at Bergen-Belsen my great aunt told me about the year (may 1944 to april 1945) she spent in Theresienstadt. That's even more embarrassing!

And believe me, I don't want any killings and IMO no killing is just! Same goes for torture, imprisonment without proven cause etc.pp ad nauseam anywhere and anytime.

Remember the 5th comandment? It doesn't mention race, skincolor or gender, it doesn't even mention a religion!

 

[bruenhilde]

I agree with Roman 100%

 

[jdos2]

Anyone up for re-titling this thread to something less rangefinder and more more photo.net?

 

[Solinar]

The Hindu symbol is the reverse of the swastika. By that I mean if you look at the two the one points counter-clockwise and the other clockwise.

Sadly, there seems to be a thriving market for Third Recih paraphanalia. Luckily, stuff like this is sold to a sold to a small fringe of wierdos. Still, it would be better if our Ukranina friends found a better way to make a buck.

I fear though we again live in times when blind faith in an idealogy allows for both the practice and tolerance of repressive government policies. Gitmo is one example.
The chasm between Government pronouncements leading to and with regards to the present occupation of a foreign country versus the realities on the ground is another example.

 

[Andy K]

The Hindu symbol is the reverse of the swastika. By that I mean if you look at the two the one points counter-clockwise and the other clockwise.

Actually Hindus use the swastika in both orientations, as I wrote previously, one represents male, the other female. "Clockwise it represents Pravritti or the evolution of the universe flowing outward & counter clockwise it represented Nirvritti the involution of the universe."

And yes the Holocaust was an outstanding abhorrence in human history, but many would do well to remember that more than 11,000,000 people were deliberately exterminated by the Nazis during the holocaust, not just 5,500,000.

As for spending one day at Bergen/Belsen or Auschwitz... my great uncle on my mother's side spent decidedly more than one day there. In fact he's still there.

 

[FrankS]

I just checked this thread again this morning and my, have you been busy! What I really respect about you guys is the way you have completely left out personal attacks while debating a very hot topic. On photonet, this would have disintigrated after a couple of posts. I think that Joe and Jorge have been very brave (or asleep like I was) to let this thead continue when it clearly veered off course and became totally political. I'm very happy that the participants "kept it together" and remained civil. I'd like to suggest though that those who'd like to continue this discussion do so off-list. Good idea, don't you think?

 

[Solinar]

I just wished that it was some other camera than a Zorki or FED that was being sold with these tacky inscripitions. It really detracts from their photographic abilities.

But let me say, I'm for freedom of expression. So, a government ban would in my opinion not be a wise policy.

 

[back alley]

i was asleep frank but i agree this thread has been kept very civil and i want to applaud you guys for using your brains rather than your verbal brawn.

none the less this thread is way off topic and mostly non rf related. and i have to go, so i'm gonna close it down and wish you all a good morning or good evening.

time for my morning coffee.