From Leica M to Sony A7s - comparison of user experience

sleepyhead

sleepyhead

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Hi All

I'm seriously thinking of getting a Sony A7s to use alongside my Leica M9, and possibly to replace the M9.

I know that different people are different, but I'm hoping that some of you who have used both cameras (or systems) can help me decide if I'll enjoy using the Sony A7s.

First some background: I've used film cameras for 40 years, and pretty much only non-digital Leica Ms and Hasselblads for the last 30 years.

About 3 years ago I started thinking seriously about "going digital" and I bought a Sony NEX-5n to use with the Leica M lenses that I already owned. I HATED IT! The user experience with NEX-5n was so unlike the film-Leica. Changing the simplest parameter involved going into menus, and somehow the camera never really did what I wanted it to do. I got a headache using it, and after 3 months I sold it. I don't think I took one picture with the NEX-5n that I liked.

Therefore I bit the bullet and bought an M9. Picking it up and using it was like the M4-P and M3 that I was used to for years (except with built-in light meter). The menu is simple and I pretty much never use it except to wipe the SD card clean or turn lens coding on/off.

While I like the M9, it is very very dim up here in Denmark in the winter and I want the Sony A7s for its extraordinary light sensitivity and to use some adapted telephoto lenses (two areas where the M9 is not so capable).

However, my NEX-5n experience makes me afraid. Will I have the same visceral rejection of the A7s? Or has the user interface and experience improved a lot since the NEX-5n. How is the A7s with manual aperture and shutter speed and ISO (like I shoot the M9: I choose an ISO, I choose an aperture, I meter, I set a shutter speed). Can these parameters be quickly set without going into any menus?

I have read the A7s manual, but it doesn't really answer my questions. There is no place to rent an A7s near me, so your help and advice will be greatly appreciated.

THANKS!
 
curious about the answers of people who have used both cameras!
just a note: when I read that you hated the use of the NEX5N I was expecting that this must be because of the different viewfinder and focusing experience. Using manual lenses I set aperture on lens and use A mode with Auto ISO, or S mode with Auto ISO. ISO change and exposure compensation are assigned to dedicated buttons, in S mode the wheel sets the shutter speed. You may need more settings, I don't and therefore never need to dive into the menu which I also detest.
 
sleepyhead,
I have recently bought the A7S. I haven't got a digital M, but do have an M3 and IIIF as well as a Hasselblad. Until recently, most of my digital cameras have been Nikon, but I have switched to Olympus and now Sony. I can answer that it is possible to use the A7S fully manually without a huge struggle with menus. I use it with Zeiss ZM lenses and focus manually. It is slower for me to focus than a Leica rangefinder because I find I have to use the magnifier to be certain of focus, but it is very reliable that way in terms of making sure you are focused before you shoot. I love being able to use all of my rangefinder and SLR lenses on the one full-frame camera, and that it has a totally silent shutter. I bought the A7S one day before going on a holiday to Bhutan and didn't regret it. Pictures here: http://members.iinet.net.au/~fingon/mckinnon/2014/bhutan.html
 
mcfingon said:
sleepyhead,
I have recently bought the A7S. I haven't got a digital M, but do have an M3 and IIIF as well as a Hasselblad. Until recently, most of my digital cameras have been Nikon, but I have switched to Olympus and now Sony. I can answer that it is possible to use the A7S fully manually without a huge struggle with menus. I use it with Zeiss ZM lenses and focus manually. It is slower for me to focus than a Leica rangefinder because I find I have to use the magnifier to be certain of focus, but it is very reliable that way in terms of making sure you are focused before you shoot. I love being able to use all of my rangefinder and SLR lenses on the one full-frame camera, and that it has a totally silent shutter. I bought the A7S one day before going on a holiday to Bhutan and didn't regret it. Pictures here: http://members.iinet.net.au/~fingon/mckinnon/2014/bhutan.html
Click to expand...

mcfingon, thank you for this encouraging information, and for your lovely pictures from Bhutan (seems to be a magical place).

I should have mentioned in my original post that besides a pocket digital point-and-shoot I've never used a digital camera except the NEX-5n and the Leica M9.

With a 35mm or 50mm f/2 lens, can one focus quickly with the A7s using only focus peaking (i.e., no magnification)?
 
Not in my experience. Maybe it's worse with the Sonnar 50/1.5 that is my favourite lens, but I was missing too many critical focusses. I found focus peaking misleading in that it would say things were in focus that weren't and also intrusive in the picture to have red bits of light showing up in various spots.
 
Since the M9 seems to have sensor issues, it is a good idea to get a SONY as a second camera anyways. I am so far using the M8 and the M9, with occasionally letting them "rest" while I use M 4/3 cameras. Getting a 10X magnification with the EP cameras for focusing allows me to set focus on eye lashes in full detail for taking portraits. All images come out incredibly sharp.
 
raid said:
Since the M9 seems to have sensor issues, it is a good idea to get a SONY as a second camera anyways. I am so far using the M8 and the M9, with occasionally letting them "rest" while I use M 4/3 cameras.
Click to expand...

Hi Raid, I've read all about the M9 sensor issues of late. I'm not particularly concerned. I've never cleaned my sensor with anything but an occasional rocket blower. Nothing lasts forever. I prefer to use things I enjoy and not worry.

I plan to keep the M9 until I see what the M11 (or whatever the successor of the M240 is called) looks like. I feel the ISO sensitivity gain of the M240 is not enough over the M9 to justify the switch.
 
mcfingon said:
Not in my experience. Maybe it's worse with the Sonnar 50/1.5 that is my favourite lens, but I was missing too many critical focusses. I found focus peaking misleading in that it would say things were in focus that weren't and also intrusive in the picture to have red bits of light showing up in various spots.
Click to expand...

That was my experience with focus peaking on the NEX-5n as well. Stuff would glow red but in the photo the focus wasn't exactly where I wanted it to be.

I wonder if focus peaking on the Leica M240 is better than the A7s in this regard?
 
I used an A7 for 3 months while my M9 was having a sensor transplant at Solms. To me, it was just another digital camera, if you see what I mean. It takes nice pictures but that's about it. It looks like a digital camera, it has buttons all over the place without any thought about ergonomics. It's too light, not well balanced, and everything feels like plastic, even the metal parts. It has no uncompressed raw, and the compressed raw is lossy. It's impossible to get the sensor to produce the starbursts that I got so easily with the Leica. As soon as I got back my M9, I sold it, sold the A7, and bought the M240, despite being very angry with Leica. There's nothing like the M in terms of user experience and enjoyment of the photographic process, even with all their technical flaws.
 
Oh, regarding focus peaking, I personally find it next to useless. It is much better to turn it off, and rely on image magnification for critical focus. On the M, it is more precise than the A7, in that it will only appear on very tiny parts of the image that are really sharp, and sometimes with wide aperture lenses, will not show at all, even when the image is in focus. On the A7, peaking would appear on high contrast objects that are not in focus, especially in the background. Anyhow I have it turned off on the M too.
 
I've learned to love my Sony A7r. It doesn't have the emotional appeal of the M9 (that I owned at one time), but it's a hell of a camera capable of awesome quality. Speaking of any Leica M or a Sony A7 series camera... you can't go wrong with either.
 
mcfingon said:
sleepyhead,
I have recently bought the A7S. I haven't got a digital M, but do have an M3 and IIIF as well as a Hasselblad. Until recently, most of my digital cameras have been Nikon, but I have switched to Olympus and now Sony. I can answer that it is possible to use the A7S fully manually without a huge struggle with menus. I use it with Zeiss ZM lenses and focus manually. It is slower for me to focus than a Leica rangefinder because I find I have to use the magnifier to be certain of focus, but it is very reliable that way in terms of making sure you are focused before you shoot. I love being able to use all of my rangefinder and SLR lenses on the one full-frame camera, and that it has a totally silent shutter. I bought the A7S one day before going on a holiday to Bhutan and didn't regret it. Pictures here: http://members.iinet.net.au/~fingon/mckinnon/2014/bhutan.html
Click to expand...

Awesome motorcycle trip and excellent photos!
 
I shot with an M8 and M9 for several years and also own a Nex 7. I tried the A7. Actually, I tried it twice, thinking perhaps I missed something the first time around. Sent it back both times.

If you hated the 5n, it's hard to see how you would enjoy the 7S. If anything, the A7 series cameras are more like DSLRs than RFs. They could not be a more different user experience than a film or digital M.

My two main dislikes of the A7 were handling and output. Overall the camera felt clunky and unrefined, very unlike the simple, graceful handling of an M. I shoot B&W mainly, and the monochrome output of the A7 just did not have the same beautiful qualities as that from the M8 or M9. But I understand the A7S, with its larger pixels, renders B&W very differently, and the samples I've seen look pretty good. I see you use film for B&W, so maybe this isn't an issue.

Of course, ISO is another matter. If you need it, you need it.

Instead of the A7, I went to an X-Pro. It has an OVF and more of an RF feel than any other digital camera I've owned. And X-Trans B&W output offers the most natural, least digital look of any camera I've owned. And high ISO performance is excellent. But I use it mainly with Fuji lenses. If I were using my digital camera with Leica lenses, I would likely prefer the A7S.

If you can't rent one, perhaps you have the option to buy with a generous return policy. In the US we have incredible return policies, especially now with the holidays close. B&H, for example, now offers current purchase returns to Feb. 1.

BTW, there are several LUF threads on the A7S.

John
 
Well, my own experience is an M9 with Zeiss 35/2 and 50/2 lenses, and a wonderful Fuji X-T1 for low light, or challenging physical conditions.

I got the Fuji-branded M adapter, and the Zeiss glass works great on the Fuji with peaking. I ended up getting a 28/35/50 setup (equivalent) for the X-T1 and it has lived up to my expectations as a dSLR styled camera, but about the size and weight of the M9. The thing I really appreciate is that I can set aperture, shutter, and ISO with my face against the VF...truly a nicely laid out tool. Also...it's VERY quiet...quieter than my M6 was, quieter than the Nikon F6 I had in silent mode, about as quiet as the X-Pro 1...AND it'll have 1/32000 second shutter speed in about two weeks.

It's a combo that works for me.
 
If you are considering using the A7S (or regular A7) wth Leica lenses, check out my 500px

4.jpg

Sony A7 and the 15mm Distagon ZM

For low-light shooting there really isn't anything out there up to the level of the A7S. I have been using it and my Noctilux to shoot concerts, and the results are amazing. Below 12,800 there seems to be no obvious reason to even care about ISO levels.

But as people have said here, the experience is different. Once you maps the controls out there is fairly little reason to go into the menus, so in this regard it is better than the NEX-5.
 
EdwardKaraa said:
Oh, regarding focus peaking, I personally find it next to useless. It is much better to turn it off, and rely on image magnification for critical focus. On the M, it is more precise than the A7, in that it will only appear on very tiny parts of the image that are really sharp, and sometimes with wide aperture lenses, will not show at all, even when the image is in focus. On the A7, peaking would appear on high contrast objects that are not in focus, especially in the background. Anyhow I have it turned off on the M too.
Click to expand...

Have you adjusted the peaking level? At the low setting I find peaking to be fairly precise way of getting focus, using lenses at their widest aperture. The trick is to look for peaking on specific parts of objects with hard edges - pupils and the edges of glasses, for instance.

I use low for lenses slower than F2 and medium for f1.4 or faster.
 
YYV_146 said:
Have you adjusted the peaking level? At the low setting I find peaking to be fairly precise way of getting focus, using lenses at their widest aperture. The trick is to look for peaking on specific parts of objects with hard edges - pupils and the edges of glasses, for instance.

I use low for lenses slower than F2 and medium for f1.4 or faster.
Click to expand...

I always kept it at the lowest setting. With my high contrast ZM lenses the EVF would light like a Christmas tree at anything higher 🙂
 
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