Fuji 1600 shot at 100?

[GRK]

I 've just been contacted by an upset friend who just finished shooting a roll of Neopan 1600. As she unloaded her camera she realised the metre was still set at 100.

I personally dont think the film can be salvaged but then i do remember reading somewhere that 1600 isnt its true speed anyway and that 1250 is closer the mark.

So is it technically possible to pull Fuji 1600 down to 100 and does anyone have any experience of using 1600 at 100 and getting usable prints?

I'd be very interested to hear any advice.
Thanks

 

[saxshooter]

Does she process it herself? She could always pull the development time and process at the lowest temperature suggested. I don't have the numbers in front of me but with some math she could figure out how long she needs to soup it for given the numbers for pulling and pushing neopan 1600 one or two stops.

Negative film is very forgiving, more in the direction of overexposure.

 

[einolu]

Depends on what you develop in. Look up the times on the 'massive dev chart'. I know with certain mixes of developer, you can develop it like 400iso film (maybe lower?), but when used in diafine, neopan is rated at around 2400...

Good luck.

< edit >
never used "d-23" it but I found this:

Film:Neopan 1600
Dev: D-23
Mix: stock
ISO: 100
Time: 8 min
Temp: 20C

Good luck!

 

[peterc]

So is it technically possible to pull Fuji 1600 down to 100 and does anyone have any experience of using 1600 at 100 and getting usable prints?

Neopan 1600 exposed at 250 takes about 15 minutes in Rodinal at the 1+100 dilution. For 100, I'd try about 10 minutes at the 1+100 dilution at 20 Celsius. Constant agitation for the first 30 seconds and 5 seconds agitation every 30 seconds after that.
With just about any other developer I can think of the processing times would be too short for such a radical pull. Short dev times (under 4 minutes) can lead to uneven development.
However, these are going to be really contrasty negatives.

Peter

 

[GRK]

Hello,

She does do her own developing in the darkrooms at our university. The developer is Jessops econodev- its really cheap stuff but its free for us to use.

According to the Fuji datasheet 1600 can be officially pulled down to 400 in d76 at 20 celsius. Time for developing at 800 is 5min and at 400 is 4min. Does this mean that at 100 a good estimation of dev time is 2 minutes or is the maths more tricky than that?

einolu and Peterc: Thanks for the devolper brand tips. I've never heard of D-23 but i have used Rodinol in the past. Not sure how easy it is to get hold of in the UK now but I will pass on the information.

I agree that 2 min in D76- if that is correct- would be way to short.

 

[jrong]

Neopan 1600 exposed at 250 takes about 15 minutes in Rodinal at the 1+100 dilution. For 100, I'd try about 10 minutes at the 1+100 dilution at 20 Celsius. Constant agitation for the first 30 seconds and 5 seconds agitation every 30 seconds after that.
Peter

Peter, I don't get it. Surely if it needs 15 mins when exposed at ISO 250, then it should require longer than 15 mins when exposed at ISO 100?? Or am I missing something here?

You can still find Rodinal at about £9 per 500ml bottle at Mr Cad. Not sure if Silverprint still stock it, but its worth calling and asking.

Good luck!
Jin

 

[peterc]

I agree that 2 min in D76- if that is correct- would be way to short.

Times under about 4 minutes don't really give the developer time to work on the film ... the chemical reactions take time. Development at shorter times is generally done at higher temperatures.

Peter

 

[peterc]

Surely if it needs 15 mins when exposed at ISO 250, then it should require longer than 15 mins when exposed at ISO 100??

Even for this dilution of Rodinal it has been overexposed by more than one stop so it still requires pulling. Overexposure requires less development. Underexposure requires more development.

Peter

 

[enochRoot]

However, these are going to be really contrasty negatives.

i had read that if you push film..it becomes more contrasty, and if you pull it..it loses contrast, and becomes more flat. anyone know for sure? i am still trying to wrap my head around all the effects of pushing/pulling.

 

[kaiyen]

Yes, pulling decreases contrast. Pushing increases it.

I would also recommend something like D23. I would not go with any kind of "universal" dev that is not specifically designed and/or used for such a tremendous EI pull.

allan

 

[peterc]

Yes, pulling decreases contrast. Pushing increases it.

In general this is true. However, I've found that with high speed films ... ISO 800 and up ... overexposure can lead to quite high contrast. Highlight detail is likely to be completely blown out in a four stop pull. That's why I recommended very dilute Rodinal. It should preserve what highlight detail there is and the longer developing time should pull out a little shadow detail.

Peter

 

[titrisol]

You guys got me thinking, even if it was a ISO1000 film, we have a 3-4 overexposure and the main problem will be to avoid blowing the highlights.
This problem calls for a divided developer or a very diluted one with semi-stand to stand process.

Rodinal at 1+100 as it has been said should work, same with HC110 at dilution 1+100 for about 20-30 minutes with agitation only every 5 minutes or less often.

Othe roptions should include Microdol-X !+3, Microphen 1+3 or even more diluted to achieve reasonable development times.

From divided developers D-D23 maybe a good option, given it is so easy to make

 

[kaiyen]

That's not increased contrast, that's increased density from plain old overexposure.

Pulling does decrease contrast in the sense that it holds back the highlight density more so than if you had not pulled development. But you can only do so much in the battle against massive overdevelopment.

But that's getting pretty nitpicky. Technically speaking, pulling will always decrease contrast as compared to normal development. Pushing will always increase contrast compared to normal development. This is purely in terms of dynamic range from shadow to highlight detail (which is the definition of contrast).

allan

 

[titrisol]

PS. looking in digital truth I found some times for EI200, those should put you n the ballpark since that 1 stop difference will not be as critical. Cut the time by 25-30%

I.E.
Neopan 1600 Xtol 1+3 200 9.25 20C
Neopan 1600 Xtol 1+2 200 7 20C
Neopan 1600 Xtol 1+1 200 5.5 20C

So I guess Xtol 1+3 for 7.5 minutes should put you n the ballpark.

 

[Roger S.]

PS. looking in digital truth I found some times for EI200, those should put you n the ballpark since that 1 stop difference will not be as critical. Cut the time by 25-30%

Exactly, there's no need to pull all the way to 100- moderately overexposing neg. film generally improves it.

 

[peterc]

An important question I failed to ask (my caffeine level wasn't up to par yet) before wading into this debate is: what were the conditions the film was used under?

Peter

 

[kaiyen]

Exactly, there's no need to pull all the way to 100- moderately overexposing neg. film generally improves it.

I think this is also an oversimplication.

The generally opinion is that if the manufacturer suggests 10 minutes at box speed, giving a bit of extra exposure is good, at that time. So the "real" speed of that film is actually, 1/2 of a stop slower then box speed. In that case, moderate overexposure is good.

However, if the time listed above for 200 is dialed in _for_ 200, then another whole stop of overexposure is going to push your highlights over the edge. Even more so than they probably already are.

For this case, I would still decrease time a bit from the EI 200 one on the MDC. Do everything you can to control those highlights.

allan

 

[GRK]

Thanks for all the advice guys

[what were the conditions the film was used under?]

The film was shot in Paris outdoors, slight overcast conditions but still quite bright. Its a bit of a touchy subject from what I gather. Elle's boyfriend loaded the film for her but was to busy metering for his newly aquired Rolleiflex to change the ISO so it stayed at 100. They still arent talking yet!

The comments to develop the film as if it were 200 make a lot of sense and I agree with Kaiyen about the universal developer.

Titrisol mentioned a possible time with HC-110. I have this on order currently so does anyone have any extra advice or direct experience for using this as it was save Elle money on buying a developer just for the 1 film

This is all really interesting.

Gengez

 

[GRK]

BTW please excuse the dumb question but what does EI stand for?

 

[titrisol]

EI = exposure Index
it is the speed you set in your camera, and it differs from ISo i the way ISO is determined. ISO is a standard, EI is arbitrary.

HC-110 1+100 is used for stand development of several films, so it may work for you as well. Most people use it for 15-21 minutes so I'd reccomend going for the shortest time (15).
I assume it is 35mm film?
- fill the thankwith water (presoak), agitate and rap a few times to dislodge bubbles.
- Dilute 5ml HC110 in 500 (or 7 in 700 for 120) , fill the tank agitate and let stand
- Agitate gently after 5 and 10 minutes
- At 15 minute mark dump developer
- Stop and fix as usual....

HOWEVER, it si possible you get nothing or you get high contrast negativves anyway 🙁

You are now entering the realm of experiments and anything is possible!