sf
Veteran
x-ray said:
I think you SHOULD use the 617 on the street. That would be a real message to the revolution.
don't think weight/size is an issue, but imo the rangefinder is not "good enough" for this kind of shooting. i found the patch to be rather small, and not all that contrasty, so quick focusing was not it's best quality. mam7 would be a much better bet imo, if you could live with the smaller format...
(oh, i didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already said excactly this,....)
(oh, i didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already said excactly this,....)
Dougg
Seasoned Member
Good point, thorirv... From descriptions it seems the RF spot in the big GW /GSW Fujis is like that in the GS645S; that is, round and fuzzy! Quite different from the sharp-edged rectangular RF patch in a Leica for instance, and in my experience it does slow the focusing process somewhat. In this respect and others the Bronica RF645 is far superior. Don't know about the Mamiyas, outside my experience.
clarence
ダメ
Abbazz said:
I've been trying to do exactly this with my Mamiya 6, and the results have been quite encouraging. It certainly is heavy, when compared to a 35mm rangefinder, but the huge rangefinder patch definitely helps with rapid focusing.
I find 12 exposures sufficient for street shooting, and the Mamiya 6 also benefits from a single stroke advance.
Clarence
x-ray
Veteran
I had a Master Technika for nearly thirty years and really loved it and shot a ton of film with it. I even had all my lenses cammed and the grip with variable VF. Rarely did I hand hold it but did a few times. It was a boat anchor but precison made.
In the mid 70's I worked for Union Carbide and shot some with a Linhof 220. If you can find one it's a very fine camera. It's a 120/220 RF camera with 100 or 105 3.5 Rodenstock lens and has a gossen selenium cell meter in it plus a built in level in the VF. There's a fine grip on the bottom with a built in release and a rapid avance film wind. It's 6x7 and excellent.
Before owning the Master Technika I had a stunning Linhof Technika 70. It had a built in BL RF with level in the VF with three cams for the lenses built in. It had full movements but was very hand holdable since it was 6x9. I had both the sheet back and super rolex 6x7 with a 53mm f4 super angulon, 100 2.8 Planar and 180 Tele-Arton. Some came with a 53 Biogon and 180 Sonnar.
Midwest photo has a very clean Technika V 6x9 with super rolex and 53 biogon, 100 planar, and 180 sonnar for $3700. Quite a fine camera and great deal.
In the mid 70's I worked for Union Carbide and shot some with a Linhof 220. If you can find one it's a very fine camera. It's a 120/220 RF camera with 100 or 105 3.5 Rodenstock lens and has a gossen selenium cell meter in it plus a built in level in the VF. There's a fine grip on the bottom with a built in release and a rapid avance film wind. It's 6x7 and excellent.
Before owning the Master Technika I had a stunning Linhof Technika 70. It had a built in BL RF with level in the VF with three cams for the lenses built in. It had full movements but was very hand holdable since it was 6x9. I had both the sheet back and super rolex 6x7 with a 53mm f4 super angulon, 100 2.8 Planar and 180 Tele-Arton. Some came with a 53 Biogon and 180 Sonnar.
Midwest photo has a very clean Technika V 6x9 with super rolex and 53 biogon, 100 planar, and 180 sonnar for $3700. Quite a fine camera and great deal.
sf
Veteran
Dougg said:
the Mamiya 7II is primo in the RF/VF department. Right up there with the RF645. RF645 is slightly better.
narsuitus
Well-known
In my opinion, the Fuji medium format rangefinders are better suited mounted on a tripod and used for shooting scenics and group photographs. They would not be my first choice for shooting hand-held outdoor candids on the street. However, neither would I exclude them as an option because under certain circumstances, they are good for street shooting.
Some of those circumstances include:
1. When I need a format that is larger than 35mm but smaller than a 4x5 inch large format (Yes, you can shoot street candids with a 4x5 press camera if you want to.)
2. When I need a camera that is not as noisy as a medium format SLR
3. When I need a camera that is no heavier in weight than a Nikon F2 SLR with motor drive
4. When I need a black bodied camera
5. When the subjects are so preoccupied that they will not notice me or my camera
Some of those circumstances include:
1. When I need a format that is larger than 35mm but smaller than a 4x5 inch large format (Yes, you can shoot street candids with a 4x5 press camera if you want to.)
2. When I need a camera that is not as noisy as a medium format SLR
3. When I need a camera that is no heavier in weight than a Nikon F2 SLR with motor drive
4. When I need a black bodied camera
5. When the subjects are so preoccupied that they will not notice me or my camera
jan normandale
Film is the other way
shutterflower said:
George, what a 'revolutionary' thought. I'm going to do it. Re the Bronica vs Mamiya glass comment you made above... well I'm partial to my Mamiya 6MF RF I think the glass is excellent so I challenge you to a 'shoot out' ! For fun of course. (I don't think we will be able to tell though because of the web's low resolution, unless you know a way)
Yours in camera competitiveness (joke/humour)
Jan ;- )
thelovecollect
Established
Todd.Hanz said:I shoot "street portraits" with a rolleiflex, they aren't decisive moments but I love the results the MF gives you, esp. close up. I have a M7II on the way and can't wait to poke it in some faces. Using the bigger cameras just means you get to interact with your subject more, not such a bad thing these days.
before you get too excited. the minimum focusing distance for a normal 80mm lens on the 7II is about 3 feet. the 150mm minimum distance is around 6ft. 40mm and 70mm translated to 35 respectively so they are still pretty wide. you will get as close to a person waist high, but that's it...
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Krosya
Konicaze
Mamiya vs Bronica?
Mamiya vs Bronica?
Hi,
I was just wondering why you say this? I mean, why do you think/say that RF645 is better that Mamiya 7II? Both have interchangable lenses. Both have good RF. While I have never used either one, from what I have read on the net - Mamiya is known for wonderful lenses that rival Hassy and really, even with all things equal - Mamiya has bigger negative - always a better way to go in my opinion. So, would you please elaborate on your statement?
Thanks,
George
Mamiya vs Bronica?
shutterflower said:
Hi,
I was just wondering why you say this? I mean, why do you think/say that RF645 is better that Mamiya 7II? Both have interchangable lenses. Both have good RF. While I have never used either one, from what I have read on the net - Mamiya is known for wonderful lenses that rival Hassy and really, even with all things equal - Mamiya has bigger negative - always a better way to go in my opinion. So, would you please elaborate on your statement?
Thanks,
George
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
In case some of you still doubt the G690 can also be used for shooting street photos, here is a picture that I just uploaded to my gallery:
I took it a few weeks ago at Jerudong fish market here in Brunei with my faithful Fujinon SWS 50mm superwide. I used Fuji Pro 800Z film, converted to B&W in Photoshop. I like this film for street shooting, because it is one of the few films still available in 220 and, at ISO 800 with a 50mm lens, I can scale focus and shoot without even using the rangefinder... Of course, it's easier to do with a 35mm camera, but the big 6x9 is surprisingly usable.
Cheers,
Abbazz
I took it a few weeks ago at Jerudong fish market here in Brunei with my faithful Fujinon SWS 50mm superwide. I used Fuji Pro 800Z film, converted to B&W in Photoshop. I like this film for street shooting, because it is one of the few films still available in 220 and, at ISO 800 with a 50mm lens, I can scale focus and shoot without even using the rangefinder... Of course, it's easier to do with a 35mm camera, but the big 6x9 is surprisingly usable.
Cheers,
Abbazz
Blue Distagon
Newbie
Just thought I'd chime in on this one.
Too Heavy....too bulky ....? I use a gw690 for a lot of my handheld work.
ITs very stable ,and with the leaf shutter , 1/8th sec is doable.
But then again I also handhold a 5x7 Graflex.
If memory serves me right- some of the most important street work pre-HCB was done w/ big Speeds & Graflexes ala Weegee and Hine....so eat your Wheaties and man-up ; )
To the original poster- Use any camera you feel like for street work. There are NO rules....just excuses.
There is no easy way to a good photograph.
Cheers!
Mike
Too Heavy....too bulky ....? I use a gw690 for a lot of my handheld work.
ITs very stable ,and with the leaf shutter , 1/8th sec is doable.
But then again I also handhold a 5x7 Graflex.
If memory serves me right- some of the most important street work pre-HCB was done w/ big Speeds & Graflexes ala Weegee and Hine....so eat your Wheaties and man-up ; )
To the original poster- Use any camera you feel like for street work. There are NO rules....just excuses.
There is no easy way to a good photograph.
Cheers!
Mike
foolproof
Established
just started using my hassy on the street after finally getting around to getting a strap for it....... and i love it ! you only live once and all that malarkey it is only a tool after all. from student to student, go with what you feel, its the only way to learn. try it all and never look back
it is only a tool after all. from student to student, go with what you feel, its the only way to learn. try it all and never look backFinder
Veteran
I use a Mamiya 6 (the 7 is the same size) and Horseman SW612 for street photos (whatever that is - I also take photos on roads, trails, lanes, avenues, drives, circles, and a large number of other puplic thoroughfares), so I can't see why one of the Fuji rangefinders would be a problem. Like any camera. it is a matter of getting used to it. I don't think "decisive moments" are limited by gear, but rather the photographer.
ghost
Well-known
give up. it can't be done. i mean, why bother. and there's a pea under my mattress. ;D
PaulDalex
Dilettante artist
I concur with Abbazz. He descibes very well shooting with the Fuji. The idea of street use never crossed my mind: I use a GSW690III with Reala on monopod or tripod when I go, as I recently do, to shoot Castles. I also tried a portrait but I had no time to pass in the scanner the negative.
For street photography I would feel akward with the Fuji, even disregarding the technical difficoulties, and I think to make oneself confortable influences the results. One should almost forget the camera and concentrate on the subject. I doubt this can be done on the street with such a Texas Leica as a Fuji.I instead use either a rangefinder or an SRL. The choice depends on what are my expectations of possible subjects.
Regard
Pistach
For street photography I would feel akward with the Fuji, even disregarding the technical difficoulties, and I think to make oneself confortable influences the results. One should almost forget the camera and concentrate on the subject. I doubt this can be done on the street with such a Texas Leica as a Fuji.I instead use either a rangefinder or an SRL. The choice depends on what are my expectations of possible subjects.
Regard
Pistach
S
Stephan
Guest
You can do street photography with anyting. It just depends what you're comfortable with. Alec Soth for example has taken some fantastic pictures that I would call street photography with an 8x10 view camera. Just make sure you're confortable with it, if you're asking you'd probably better get familiar with the process of using that camera before you try street photography with it, but once you're comfortable, fire away !
Turtle
Veteran
A comment on a few things....Mamiya vs RF645 vs Leica vs Fuji 6x9:
Dont worry about lens quality. They are all sh!t hot. Some say the RF645 lenses are better than the Mamiya 7 and some the other way round. I own an RF645 and print a friends Mamiya 7 negs and they are both so sharp it is irrelevant which has the edge in a lab shoot out (BUT the neg size does matter). In the field little can touch them esp considering the size.
The viewfinder orientation IS important. I dont mind the RF being vertical some will rule it out for this reason - fair enough.
The Bronica IS much smaller than the Maiya - put two side by side with lenses attached and see for yourself. Much shorter nose to tail and this makes a difference carrying it about round your neck as it 'sticks out a lot more'.
The Bronica has an auto curtain unlike the Mamiya where you have to manually close it to prevent fogging when you change lenses. This slows you down quite a bit and is more fiddly (think cold day when in a rush)
The Mamiya 7 DOES produce sharper enlargements (than RF645) at bigger sizes as the negs are a fair bit bigger, but this is not very significant at normal print sizes. BUT you get only 10 shots per roll vs 16. That is a lot more time changing rolls...drawing back that curtain etc
The fuji is huge (and heavy) and slow relatively as well as having a fixed lens. It would not be my choice ( I owned one years back - GSW69 III). An RF with even two lenses or a Mamiya 7 is vastly faster and more flexible. Considering how good the RF and Mamiya 7 is I personally would not consider one if I could afford a Mamiya 7 and was prepared to put up with the bigger size compared to teh RF645.
Having experienced all these cameras I have decided to buy a Leica as my under the coat camera. I will put spare lenses in belt pouches and carry the leica inside an open coat or openly (depending upon where) for those fast grab shots. I can therefore carry a complete set of 3-4 lenses all on my hips or round my neck and almost invisibly. I recently did some street work in NY and found that about a quarter of my shots were so fleeting as to be missed is the camera is bagged. Not having done street for some time I forgot how fast you need to be, so took to carring my Canon Eos round my neck - AF off (Bronny was in another country...). I personally like to be out for hours and hours and hours (read all day) and cover a lot of ground at an amble. I like to be comfortable. A huge 1.5kg camera around my neck is not comfortable to me and without lenses is certainly not flexible either.
Now I will either carry the Leica set up as described or if I feel like carrying more take the Leica with a 35 and 90 ready to go and the Bronica in a bag with its 45 and 65 for the slower work where I want a more enlargeable neg.
Dont get me wrong, I love the Mamiya 7 for its results but decided after my recent trip that I wanted something even smaller and faster and more flexible than even the RF645 so went for the leica. Thankfully I m lucky and have more than one camera, but if I could have only one in the world, it would be a Mamiya 7 II as it is so good at so many things and has such outstanding quality when begs are really enlarged. However, for street technical quality somehow is just not that important compared to 'cleaner disciplines' but speed and comfort is. If you are puffed out and sweating from that backpack IMO it is not conducive to good street or walkabout photography.
Err, Make sense?
Dont worry about lens quality. They are all sh!t hot. Some say the RF645 lenses are better than the Mamiya 7 and some the other way round. I own an RF645 and print a friends Mamiya 7 negs and they are both so sharp it is irrelevant which has the edge in a lab shoot out (BUT the neg size does matter). In the field little can touch them esp considering the size.
The viewfinder orientation IS important. I dont mind the RF being vertical some will rule it out for this reason - fair enough.
The Bronica IS much smaller than the Maiya - put two side by side with lenses attached and see for yourself. Much shorter nose to tail and this makes a difference carrying it about round your neck as it 'sticks out a lot more'.
The Bronica has an auto curtain unlike the Mamiya where you have to manually close it to prevent fogging when you change lenses. This slows you down quite a bit and is more fiddly (think cold day when in a rush)
The Mamiya 7 DOES produce sharper enlargements (than RF645) at bigger sizes as the negs are a fair bit bigger, but this is not very significant at normal print sizes. BUT you get only 10 shots per roll vs 16. That is a lot more time changing rolls...drawing back that curtain etc
The fuji is huge (and heavy) and slow relatively as well as having a fixed lens. It would not be my choice ( I owned one years back - GSW69 III). An RF with even two lenses or a Mamiya 7 is vastly faster and more flexible. Considering how good the RF and Mamiya 7 is I personally would not consider one if I could afford a Mamiya 7 and was prepared to put up with the bigger size compared to teh RF645.
Having experienced all these cameras I have decided to buy a Leica as my under the coat camera. I will put spare lenses in belt pouches and carry the leica inside an open coat or openly (depending upon where) for those fast grab shots. I can therefore carry a complete set of 3-4 lenses all on my hips or round my neck and almost invisibly. I recently did some street work in NY and found that about a quarter of my shots were so fleeting as to be missed is the camera is bagged. Not having done street for some time I forgot how fast you need to be, so took to carring my Canon Eos round my neck - AF off (Bronny was in another country...). I personally like to be out for hours and hours and hours (read all day) and cover a lot of ground at an amble. I like to be comfortable. A huge 1.5kg camera around my neck is not comfortable to me and without lenses is certainly not flexible either.
Now I will either carry the Leica set up as described or if I feel like carrying more take the Leica with a 35 and 90 ready to go and the Bronica in a bag with its 45 and 65 for the slower work where I want a more enlargeable neg.
Dont get me wrong, I love the Mamiya 7 for its results but decided after my recent trip that I wanted something even smaller and faster and more flexible than even the RF645 so went for the leica. Thankfully I m lucky and have more than one camera, but if I could have only one in the world, it would be a Mamiya 7 II as it is so good at so many things and has such outstanding quality when begs are really enlarged. However, for street technical quality somehow is just not that important compared to 'cleaner disciplines' but speed and comfort is. If you are puffed out and sweating from that backpack IMO it is not conducive to good street or walkabout photography.
Err, Make sense?
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Solinar
Analog Preferred
The weight and bulk issue makes perfect sense to me. The GSW690 should be lighter than the original breech lock G690 BL which weighed about 4 lbs. Ever carry four pounds of potatoes all day in a back pack?
My walk about kit is comprised of a 35mm range finder with two lenses or DSLR with two lenses, plus a 6x9 folder. The antideluvian folder in this case is an Agfa Record III, which has a cold shoe to mount my Leitz 5cm finder.
When I need speed, I carry a 6x6 Agfa Super Isolette that has a winder with an auto film stop and unit focusing coupled range finder focusing. Both of which are lacking on the front cell focusing Record III, which has a non coupled range finder.
The Record III is slow going with regards to focusing, film winding and compositing. You do have to arm the shutter as a separate step. You can still burn through a roll of film in less than a minute, which is 8 exposures. I usually pre-focus, arm the shutter, wind the film and wait for the subject to move into the frame. Then at the last moment bring the camera up to my eye.
On the plus side, the Record III is compact and light. Too light, in fact, which is why I prefer using the Super Isolette that is heavier. So with the Record III, I try to keep the shutter speeds above 1/100th, which means there is only 3 speeds to work from. Now this would be a problem, but in a downtown area the lighting on the street can be pretty dim and the fact that I tend to shoot at f/8 to provide a margin of error while focusing on the move, both the subject and myself. In a pinch you brace an arm or elbow against a building or poll and shoot at 1/50th of second.
Lens resolution is a non issue with such a large neg. The exception being is that close ups at 4 feet with the 105mm Solinar are a bit soft, when compared to the unit focusing 75mm Solinar on my Super Isolette or Leitz Summicron, but older subjects love the look.
Another issue is film usage. If you develop your own film, six or seven rolls of film eats up a lot of time when in comes to D.I.Y. development. Six rolls yields 48 exposures. 35mm is much more efficient.
The Record III is no larger than my 35mm Canon P with a collapsible Summicron attached.
My walk about kit is comprised of a 35mm range finder with two lenses or DSLR with two lenses, plus a 6x9 folder. The antideluvian folder in this case is an Agfa Record III, which has a cold shoe to mount my Leitz 5cm finder.
When I need speed, I carry a 6x6 Agfa Super Isolette that has a winder with an auto film stop and unit focusing coupled range finder focusing. Both of which are lacking on the front cell focusing Record III, which has a non coupled range finder.
The Record III is slow going with regards to focusing, film winding and compositing. You do have to arm the shutter as a separate step. You can still burn through a roll of film in less than a minute, which is 8 exposures. I usually pre-focus, arm the shutter, wind the film and wait for the subject to move into the frame. Then at the last moment bring the camera up to my eye.
On the plus side, the Record III is compact and light. Too light, in fact, which is why I prefer using the Super Isolette that is heavier. So with the Record III, I try to keep the shutter speeds above 1/100th, which means there is only 3 speeds to work from. Now this would be a problem, but in a downtown area the lighting on the street can be pretty dim and the fact that I tend to shoot at f/8 to provide a margin of error while focusing on the move, both the subject and myself. In a pinch you brace an arm or elbow against a building or poll and shoot at 1/50th of second.
Lens resolution is a non issue with such a large neg. The exception being is that close ups at 4 feet with the 105mm Solinar are a bit soft, when compared to the unit focusing 75mm Solinar on my Super Isolette or Leitz Summicron, but older subjects love the look.
Another issue is film usage. If you develop your own film, six or seven rolls of film eats up a lot of time when in comes to D.I.Y. development. Six rolls yields 48 exposures. 35mm is much more efficient.
The Record III is no larger than my 35mm Canon P with a collapsible Summicron attached.
pstevenin
Established
thelovecollect said:
I plan to sell my GW670 III for a decent price (counter is around 30 rolls)and is almost like new. PM me if you are interested.
Main reason is I just bought a 6*7 back for my horseman VH-R+ a Rodenstock sironar-N 100mm . It sounds just duplicate to me, now....
Philippe.
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