Fuji GW670III - lowest handheld shutter speed?

[tim_c]

Calling all Fuji MF rangefinder owners!

What's the slowest shutter speed you use hand-held with confidence knowing your get sharp exposures? I haven't been using anything lower than 125th/sec on my GW670III and sticking to the rule that you shouldn't go any lower than the focal length of the lens which is 90mm. Am I correct in assuming this?

Tim C.

 

[narsuitus]

I use 1/60th second handheld. However, I am using flash. The reason for the 1/60th is because I use other cameras with a top flash sync speed of 1/60; therefore, for uniformity, I have standardized on 1/60.

Rarely do I shoot available light with my 670 (or my 690) without a tripod.

I have not tested it but I have been told by other 670 users that handholding lowers the image quality to the point that the image looks no better than a 35mm image.

 

[kuzano]

What UTTER Hogwash....

What UTTER Hogwash....

I have not tested it but I have been told by other 670 users that handholding lowers the image quality to the point that the image looks no better than a 35mm image.

Not you of course, but the advisor's you are listening to.

Think about it

1. a 670 frame is 4+ times greater than a 35mm frame. A 690 frame is 4.7 times greater than 35mm.

2. The Fuji is a leaf shutter, offering less shake potential than a focal plane or SLR shutter mechanism as are usually found in the majority of 35mm cameras.

3. EBC coated Fuji lenses are very likely sharper and higher quality image makers than the majority of 35mm lenses that exist today.

4. The bulk and weight of a Fuji GW allows the photographer to handhold steadier than a smaller, lighter 35mm camera when the shutter is pushed, given that the weight is not too great for a given photographer. In addition, the Fuji shutter is a sweet shutter to trip.

5. In my experience with a number of Fuji 645's to 690's, including the 65mm GSW lenses, I have never seen a situation where I would have opted for a 35mm for better image quality and focus characteristics.

6. Since film emulsions have developed parallel for 35mm and 120 roll film, there is no film advantage to 35mm over MF on any frame format.

7. Nothing about Fuji camera quality, or MF in general, supports any consideration of a 35mm frame matching the quality of a frame 2.75 (645) to 4.7 (690) times larger.

Now on the original posters question, since these are purely mechanical camera's with no stabilization features, I would (and do) hold to the reciprocal rule for hand holding. Perhaps 1/60th second on the 65mm GSW models and 1/125th on the 90/100mm lenses. 100 was the lens on the G690/GL690.

Furthermore, I do tend, at my age to use either a monopod, or a tripod. In fact, when I was younger, I was never too proud to use one of the best photographic tools ever invented... the tripod.

If your friends who shoot Fuji medium format cannot produce an image that blows 35mm out of the water, they need to look inward... not at the camera or lens.

 

[tim_c]

So does anyone actually have any experience at using a 90mm equipped Fuji rangefinder hand-held at speeds less than 125th/sec?

 

[bmattock]

So does anyone actually have any experience at using a 90mm equipped Fuji rangefinder hand-held at speeds less than 125th/sec?

Yes. Except mine is the G690, so the lens is 100mm (and I have the 180mm). I regularly shoot at lower speeds. No problems.

 

[Turtle]

IMHO some of the passge quoted does not agree with my experiences. Here is my take having shot extensively with both 35mm RF and 120 RF and using them for their strengths. I use a Mamiya 7 system which is optically unbelievable and has about the smoothest firing shutter on earth:

Many 35mm lenses are every bit as good as the MF lens on the GW. When did you last shoot a Leica or Zeiss lens?

The bigger neg often brings finer grain and a greater visual expectation of resoution on print. Odd, but true (for me)

The DOF requirements force you to stop down more (two stops more when you double the FL) and so you may, shooting hand held, need faster film. This can narrow the gap under certain circumstances. It routinely means I could shoot D100 in the leica and D400 in the Mamiya, however I am not a fan of the tonality of D400 so opt for Neopan 400. The 6x7 Neopan neg still trumps but the D100 negs from the Leica are incredibly good. Even on a 16x20 the difference is not epic for certain subject types.

I personally find that I can shoot my 28mm lens on the leica consistently at 1/30 and get very sharp images and can do the same on the Mamiya 7 with the 65mm at about 1/60. Any slower and shake makes an appearance quite visibly as it does with the leica at 1/15. This is of course more visible when shooting fine grained film as it is more obvious what you are missing! I use a monopod with the 120 when I have the opportunity. Even at 1/60th you will see a subtle but visible improvement in resolution. Your images just tend to have that high shutter speed/tripod look lacking when on the edge of handholdable speed.

IMHO a shot on coarse film on 35mm if slightly unsharp due to shake shows it less than one on the natrually smoother look of 120 where it is blindingly obvious the image should have had more detail.

My personal view is that the nature of 35mm images, especially those with visible grain lead to the viewer accepting unsharpness as part of the image expectation more with 35mm than with super smooth and creamy 120 negs. My personal take is that I cnt stand my 120 negs that are unsharp due to shake but find 35mm 400 speed negs often look OK especially if there is movement in the scene. perhaps this is due to the more casual style I use with the 35mm.

I would agree that 1/125 is the slowest you should routinely use with a 90mm lens. I find 1/60 right on the edge with the 80mm mamiya lens with 125th yielding crisper negs.

Not you of course, but the advisor's you are listening to.

Think about it

1. a 670 frame is 4+ times greater than a 35mm frame. A 690 frame is 4.7 times greater than 35mm.

2. The Fuji is a leaf shutter, offering less shake potential than a focal plane or SLR shutter mechanism as are usually found in the majority of 35mm cameras.

3. EBC coated Fuji lenses are very likely sharper and higher quality image makers than the majority of 35mm lenses that exist today.

4. The bulk and weight of a Fuji GW allows the photographer to handhold steadier than a smaller, lighter 35mm camera when the shutter is pushed, given that the weight is not too great for a given photographer. In addition, the Fuji shutter is a sweet shutter to trip.

5. In my experience with a number of Fuji 645's to 690's, including the 65mm GSW lenses, I have never seen a situation where I would have opted for a 35mm for better image quality and focus characteristics.

6. Since film emulsions have developed parallel for 35mm and 120 roll film, there is no film advantage to 35mm over MF on any frame format.

7. Nothing about Fuji camera quality, or MF in general, supports any consideration of a 35mm frame matching the quality of a frame 2.75 (645) to 4.7 (690) times larger.

Now on the original posters question, since these are purely mechanical camera's with no stabilization features, I would (and do) hold to the reciprocal rule for hand holding. Perhaps 1/60th second on the 65mm GSW models and 1/125th on the 90/100mm lenses. 100 was the lens on the G690/GL690.

Furthermore, I do tend, at my age to use either a monopod, or a tripod. In fact, when I was younger, I was never too proud to use one of the best photographic tools ever invented... the tripod.

If your friends who shoot Fuji medium format cannot produce an image that blows 35mm out of the water, they need to look inward... not at the camera or lens.

 

[sevo]

5. In my experience with a number of Fuji 645's to 690's, including the 65mm GSW lenses, I have never seen a situation where I would have opted for a 35mm for better image quality and focus characteristics.

Well, there is depth of field. I always liked my Minoxes for that, and nowadays I sometimes use digital compacts even when there are no space and tome considerations hindering me at using a bigger camera.

Now on the original posters question, since these are purely mechanical camera's with no stabilization features, I would (and do) hold to the reciprocal rule for hand holding. Perhaps 1/60th second on the 65mm GSW models and 1/125th on the 90/100mm lenses. 100 was the lens on the G690/GL690.

From my experience, one more stop is indicated unless I can rest my arm somewhere. I am only safe at 1/125 on the GSWII and 1/250 on the GM670 (with 100mm lens), while I can hand-hold 1/30 on a 28 or 35mm small format lens with a very high success rate (even on a F2, which kicks like a mule compared to more modern or leaf shutter cameras). Given that the GM670 with AE Electro lens has the smoothest shutter operation (in proportion to weight) of any camera I own, that can be no handling issue either.

I suspect that it is due to the cumulation of the entire set of contrast and resolution relevant parameters each increasing with film size - the perceived improvement is more than just linear.

Sevo

 

[Pherdinand]

i have a gw690ii. I shot plenty of 6x9 frames on iso 100 film (mostly kodak e100G and GX) that does show every imperfection.
I have no trouble keeping it steady at 1/60s. Practically i see no difference between 1/60 and 1/500, except some cases where the subject itself is moving fast enough.

 

[tim_c]

Thanks for the information regular Fuji Rangefinder users. The only time I've shot at 60th I was knee deep in cold sea water at dusk and pushed the film from 400 iso to 1600 iso. The pictures weren't razor sharp like they had been in the first 2 rolls I'd shot so, considering all the variables, thought I'd better eliminate the shutter speed issue.

Thanks again, TimC

 

[Pherdinand]

well, maybe your hands were freeezing and you were shivering and shaking

 

[TWoK]

I've gotten sharp shots out of my GW690II at 1/15th.

 

[Turtle]

I've gotten sharp shots out of my GW690II at 1/15th.

Presumably not every time? I regard the 'every time sharp' speed as my baseline because I don't want to leave it to chance that the image will be sharp. I want to know it will be. If I have time to shoot a sequence and pick the sharpest I will and sure, you can dip below the 1/FL rule here. I would suggest that printed to a decent size, unless you used a rest or some bracing, images shot at, say 1/250 would be very noticably sharper than those at 1/15th.

 

[Turtle]

Thanks for the information regular Fuji Rangefinder users. The only time I've shot at 60th I was knee deep in cold sea water at dusk and pushed the film from 400 iso to 1600 iso. The pictures weren't razor sharp like they had been in the first 2 rolls I'd shot so, considering all the variables, thought I'd better eliminate the shutter speed issue.

Thanks again, TimC

As someone said earlier, a huge amount depends on how stable you are. I can get unsharp images at 1/125 with my Mamiya if I am also moving, tripping up, panning every so slightly, or leaning on a vibrating vehicle! Leaning on a wall, with your pulse down and nicely relaxed you can get pin sharp images well under 1/60. however - and here I disagree strongly with an earlier statement - you will see sharper images, if enlarged enough to see, at speeds faster than 1/FL i.e. two 'average shots' from 1/60 and 1/250 with a 65mm lens on the Mamiya printed to 20x16. the one at the faster speed wil retain more extremely fine detail. This has been borne out time and time again in my own tests and as a competative marksman, I am not prone to shake! It is much less obvious with TriX in Rodinal but quite obvious with, say, D100 in Xtol where the detail never seems to end.

Monopods are one of the best value accessories you can buy! They give 1-2 stops, comparing like for like.

 

[noah b]

Since you're dealing with a leaf shutter, you don't need to worry much about the camera making any harsh movements. 60th of a second is fine, when it comes to 15th and 30th, you may want to be careful. I've got the gsw690II but I usually use a tripod for speeds like that.

 

[zniv]

I always thought that the 1 / focal length = lowest handheld speed formula would only apply for 35 mm, as it is actually the angle of view that determines how shake-resistant the lens is, but actual Fujica users here seem to tell a different story... I'd have guessed that 1/60 s would be ok, or even 1/30 s as these cameras have a leaf shutter.

 

[tim_c]

I always thought that the 1 / focal length = lowest handheld speed formula would only apply for 35 mm, as it is actually the angle of view that determines how shake-resistant the lens is, but actual Fujica users here seem to tell a different story... I'd have guessed that 1/60 s would be ok, or even 1/30 s as these cameras have a leaf shutter.

I don't think the leaf shutter argument comes into it. My GW90III makes a really loud mechanical clunk noise when I release the shutter, you can feel it through the camera body. It's not like the Yashica Electro 35.

Thank you for your advice Turtle, it makes sense. I've got some very sharp exposures at 125th and 250th/sec. Does a monopod work as well for speeds down to 15th/sec? Also, what flash do you use with your Fuji?

Thanks, Tim C

 

[sevo]

I don't think the leaf shutter argument comes into it. My GW90III makes a really loud mechanical clunk noise when I release the shutter, you can feel it through the camera body.

Yep, the bottom counter kicks like a mule. The large mass of the camera seems to make up for it, though, as my GSW does not suffer from release-related vibration. Besides, I have observed comparable (considering 65mm on 6x9 vs. 100mm on 6x7) safe times with the GM670/100AE - which lacks that bizarre Fuji counter and whose lens has a completely soft and silent electronic leaf shutter.

 

[TWoK]

First of all, noah booshu, that is one of my favorite Eggleston shots.

I think I'll be trying to remove the film counter from my GW690. It is so loud and jittery. I don't see how this shot could be any sharper at f/3.5. This was at 1/30 or 1/15th, I don't remember. I took a shot after this at 1/8th which had plenty of blur in it.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2636/3955028439_f89d48bed8_o.jpg

 

[Ben Blacket]

Using the shutter button on the front of the camera might also make a difference 'cause you're not pushing down with your finger.
It also depends how near/far the subject matter is.
An example of this is photographing with a slow shutter speed from a moving car without panning - foreground is blurry, distance is sharp.

 

[furcafe]

I do. I use the GW670III just like an over-sized Leica or Contax & pay little attention to the 1/focal length rule. A rangefinder is a rangefinder. Per turtle's last post, a lot has to do w/your shooting abilities & techniques. My recommendation is to simply practice, practice, & then practice some more.

Some examples:

I took this 1/15th sec. shot in my gallery w/the 1st roll of film I ever put through my GW670III:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=97679&ppuser=736

I stopped on the sidewalk & took the shot, no special camera fu required.

Similarly, nothing special needed for this 1/15th sec. studio shot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/furcafe/2391536078/in/photostream/

For this shot, taken @ 1/4th of a sec., I braced my arms against my chest, but the stool I was sitting on, identical to the ones in the shot, wasn't very stable (they're bouncy & swivel so I waited until my stool stopped turning):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/furcafe/1314741190/in/set-72157601795129676/

So does anyone actually have any experience at using a 90mm equipped Fuji rangefinder hand-held at speeds less than 125th/sec?