FYI: Shooting without consent in Quebec

David Murphy said:
I agree that this should not turn into some sort of diatribe against Quebec, the Quebecois, or the French. Quebec is not France and vice-versa (both are fabulous places to live and visit).
Especially when there have been plenty of threads here and elsewhere about how since post-9/11 police in the US have been increasingly hostile towards photogs in the streets....
 
gabrielma said:
That is a lot of bull****. You insecure French-bashers repeat this stupid lie out of context. Only bumpersticker one-liners work for you.

Also shows your great geographical knowledge. Quebec is not in France, just like Ireland isn't in Canada.

Research your own medieval laws; it isn't even fun to make fun of them. In some states if a person feels threatened by your camera, they can shoot and ask questions later. But I guess you can't make fun of that when you have a gun pointed at you.

Good day cowboys.
I agree with your point but wish you had made it in a more mature and civil manner. It would have been alot more poignant if you hadn't added an outright lie. Correct me if I'm wrong but in what state can a person who "feels threatened by your camera, they can shoot and ask questions later?"
 
Now having read the Quebec law and the actual Supreme Court of Canada decision mentioned in the Montreal Mirror article, I take back my off-the-cuff snide remark earlier on in this thread.

This is more an example of: (1) a well-intentioned law can have unintended consequences; and, (2) the lengths to which the rest of Canada will go to avoid having Quebec worry that its traditions and laws are being usurped.

The problem began with Quebec's Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms which says, among other things, that:

"Every person is the possessor of the fundamental freedoms, including freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of opinion, freedom of expression, freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association...Every person has a right to the safeguard of his dignity, honour and reputation...Every person has a right to respect for his private life."

Well, that sounds awful nice when you read it. Somehow, a local Quebec judge got hold of that language and took it to the (il)logical extreme. The appellate courts let the decision stand, in part, because of a liberal reading of Quebec law but in part also because the decision was based on specific facts and trial judges are given a lot of discretion in deciding fact-based cases. An appellate court is reluctant to overturn a decision just because it disagrees with the trial judge's interpretation of facts. The appellate court has to find that the trial judge "abused" his/her "discretion" if they're going to overturn that judge's decision.

The only piece of good news about the Quebec law is that even if you've taken the photo, and you've published it, and the person was recognizable, and they didn't give permission, that person still has to show some type of damage or injury NOT from the taking of the photo but the publication of the photo. So, if they became rich from it, or garnered new respect they'd never enjoyed before, they'd have no grounds to sue. It's a regular private lawsuit where they have to show liability, causation and damages. It's nothing criminal or anything like that. Cold comfort when all you want to do is visit the place and have some snaps showing the trip.

Some on this thread have done a bit of French-bashing. While Quebec is far away from France and has nothing to do with France, Quebec law is nevertheless consciously affected by French law and French interpretatons of the civil law. The French have nothing to do with causing Quebec to do this of course, and can't be blamed for how Quebec chooses to interpret French law.

As for the Supreme Court of Canada going too far to show deference for Quebec laws, that's just my subjective opinion. In my view, it's something that Canadian politicians do too much of generally. But I will also say that I've read plenty of SCC decisions that dealt with Quebec law and, in my subjective personal opinion, the SCC shows undue deference to Quebec laws and traditions even when objectively they are objectionable; a deference that it does not show when it's commenting on the laws of other provinces.
 
Hi Julian,

Thank-you for the excellent reading of the ruling. This helps me to understand the issues better. I read the experience as a warning to professional photographers and people who would like to use those candid shots for some purpose other than filling their own photo albums, i.e. publish them. It's not against the law to snap the photos...

Still this makes me unhappy. I use my photography for my graphic design work and dream of being good enough to have a gallery show of photography...Quebec is a very beautiful place. The people are warm and generous. Their architecture and attitudes are very European. It's a beautiful place to visit in the fall when the maples are resplendent, at least I can photograph the trees without consent!

I have been cruising Flickr a lot lately. I found this photographer that is taking candid shots in Montreal, so, obviously, it has not ended the art-form there. I imagine that he has to take greater precautions. I'm curious how he works.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathanclark/

You can see what a lovely place Montreal is! I just love this city!!
 
And, by the way, as an outsider, I do find some of the laws about signage quite strange and punishing to the English speaking population of Quebec. Jacque Parizeau said many bizarre things, from my point of view. Quebecers are very proud of their culture and heritage, it truly is unique. If you do go to Quebec, as a word from the experienced, don't go around asking everyone, "So, what do you think about separation?" Even if you are just curious. 🙂
 
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I will be in Quebec next week. Sadly, only for one day/night (passing through from NH to Ontario), but I will make damn sure I take some street photos.

Oh, and for those of you who have scratched Quebec off your travel list, too bad, my gain. All the more unpasteurized cheese for me to enjoy.
 
It has more to do with privacy protection... than anything else. Living on the Quebec side of Ottawa-Hull... and having lived in Montreal previously... I can tell you that personally I encountered fewer than a 1/2 dozen people who actually got their knickers in a knot about my shutterbugging. But I would respect anyone - even outside of Quebec - who requested I not take their picture. What's more, I usually try to ask if the person minds if I take their picture... especially if I do not know the person.

Truly the paparazzi would have a hard time in this province behaving like they do... but how hard is it to ask someone if they mind having their picture taken?

It's just common courtesy...


/2 cents
 
sirius said:
In the article they mention that Quebec law is closely based on French law. Is there privacy laws restricting street photography in France? That would be ironic since so many of the greats made their name there.

Ooh, there are lots of famous photographers in his documentary. I bet that would be fascinating to watch!


In France... it's not about taking the picture so much as publishing the picture.

Quebec's law is based on the French civil code... but they have tweaked it over the years. In some instances they are quite strict with their application of adopted law... in others, not so much.
 
Uncle Bill said:
Well as someone who was born and spent the first twelve years of my life in Montreal, if I ever get famous with my photography (most unlikely), I will never show my work in the province of my birth.

I can't be bothered to deal with the legal hassles.

Bill


It's really not that hard to get verbal or written consent... but consent only really applies to publication. And I would think if one was going to submit their images for publication they would have a release form signed. I don't see that as a hassle in the legal sense.

Having lived in Montreal for a few years, I can tell you that most people are more than accommodating... but on the off chance that someone got their knickers in a knot... I have relented in such instances.

I never saw it as an imposition to ask complete strangers, or buskers, or anyone for that matter if they mind having their picture taken.

Maybe I am not really understanding what the big deal is from either side of this particular post... it's nice to be able to shutterbug... any time, any place, and anyone... but at the same time, I think that shutterbuggers should/would/could consider the person they are attempting to get a shot of...


/2 cents
 
The woman could have sued and won in the US. I think we are forgetting one thing that jumped out at me - it was a cover photo. In the States, a cover photo can be thought of as commercial as it is promoting the sale of the magazine. Most publishers will not put a photo on the cover unless it is released.
 
Finder said:
The woman could have sued and won in the US. I think we are forgetting one thing that jumped out at me - it was a cover photo. In the States, a cover photo can be thought of as commercial as it is promoting the sale of the magazine. Most publishers will not put a photo on the cover unless it is released.


Agreed.


🙂 SC
 
sirius said:
... I imagine that he has to take greater precautions. I'm curious how he works...


I would think that release forms are necessary if one is going to publish any image for profit.

Personally, if I saw a picture of myself somewhere - traditional print, or otherwise - I would expect the person to have attained my signature on a release form beforehand.
 
Good God, I go away for a few days and people get all snitty.

I get tired of the posts blaming George Bush for everytime that a photographer gets questioned, hassled, or looked at funny by mall security people. I think my comment was an appropriate response and meant to be funny. I didn't say "hate the French" or even "dislike" the French. I said make fun of them. Heck, they pulled out of Lebanon before they even went. LeGoogle or whatever they call that search engine they are trying to rig, the whole Jerry Lewis thing, the way they get snitty when you saw FRA-nce and not fraw-nce are all good material for jokes and comments.


As to GabrielMa, you took things too far. I am not going to be funny with you. You are a hateful, narrow minded twit. Someone said it was based on French Law, sorry I believed someones post here.

If you think you can shoot someone with a gun in the US b/c they are taking a picture of you, you are going to end up in prison. Looking at your picture, you are not going to do well in a prison, you skinny little punk.

I don't like France, nothing personal. I just think they have taken the Cardinal Richelieu thing too far. The US is not Hapsburg Austria, and I don't like their Realpolitic strategy of counterbalance to the US. There are some truly evil people in this world that need to be taken out. France seems to see this as an opportunity for potential nation gain. The Francophiles take shots at the US, I take shots at France.

I feel better now. When I see stupidity like Gabriel's spouted out, the thing that gives me that greatest inner peace is that I'm walking away from them, while they are stuck with themselves for the rest of their lives.

Mark Ryan
Denver Colorado "Cowboy"
 
Hey, come-on. Gabriel got personal and so have you. Is that really necessary here? You are both jut going to wreck this topic for others. I saw what you originally said as humorous, but humor is a tricky thing and not for everyone. I'm sure that someone from France could easily take issue with making fun of a national crisis that traumatized so many people. Understandable? We can express dissenting opinions without resorting to name-calling and insults.
 
sunsworth said:
Well first of all Quebec is not France, it's in a different country. Secondly Senegal is not France, it too is a different country, heck they're even on different continents! Sorry if this is a difficult concept for some to grasp.

If the Senegal reference is about my little story - guess what, I know it's on a different continent. I was there!
As it is a former French colony it still retains many French laws, including the one about photographing people.
I felt I didn't need to state the obvious. Sorry if this is a difficult concept for some to grasp.
 
Senegal is a bit different from France. You don't actually have to break a law, you only have to be perceived as possibly having broken a law, which might make you vulnerable to having to part with some dollars. The way to deal with these situations in Africa, especially West Africa, as a large number of people in that part expect to be paid for having their photograph taken, is to offer a round of cokes and cigarettes all around, give the bloke a dollar, offer to mail him a print (and do so!!) and smile. Next time hire a reliable local guide who will smooth the way for you. You're happy as in not being hassled, he's happy because he will be able to buy his wife a chicken and the locals are happy because they are being approached the right way. Nothing to do with laws etc.
 
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OK, ok, from now on I'll just use insult lines from Monty Python movies.

I fart in your general direction!!! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of Eldeberies!
 
This has gotten a bit out of hand. It is nice to know that if you get permission to photograph someone in Quebec that it's OK. Still, I probably won't go there since the paperwork could be a hassle. I'd rather go to France, as I don't intend to publish. And, as an English speaking resident of the USA, I'd propbably go to Quebec before I go to Brittain after the banning of carryon nonsense. Both the Frenceh and English folks can get quite silly when they want to...
 
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